Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread - Page 1116 - Wrestling Forum : WWE, TNA, Debate League, Wrestling Videos, Women of Wrestling Forums
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Old 12-13-2012, 12:13 PM   #11151 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

I've never actually sat down and tried to statistically rank GOAT's based on a set numerical criteria. I've always just sort of listed them in my head in the order that I would imagine them to appear based on a number of factors if that makes any sense at all. I'd like to do something like that though as I reckon it could be a lot of fun. I'd consider more than just mic work and ring work though. I kinda think that you have to tbh because they are 2 completely subjective elements. I think that in order to rank people fairly, there needs to be some measure of objectivity and that's where the oh so dreaded DEM DRAWING NUMBAHS come into play lol. Like it or not, they're about the only thing that isn't mainly influenced by personal opinion. I'd also consider things like impact, over-ness, memorable moments and matches etc. Naturally, I'm appreciate of ring work otherwise I wouldn't enjoy discussing matches so much but when it comes to best total packages, being good or great in the ring alone isn't enough imo. And for the record, Punk wouldn't come within a sniff of my top 10 I'm pretty sure of that
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Old 12-13-2012, 12:15 PM   #11152 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

If we were to do an in-depth ranking system we'd have to come up with more than 2 factors (in-ring and mic skills). Impact on business, charisma, drawing power (FUCK), etc would all come into play.

edit FUCK should probably read the posts above before I post.
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Old 12-13-2012, 12:24 PM   #11153 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Reindeer Killer View Post
If we were to do an in-depth ranking system we'd have to come up with more than 2 factors (in-ring and mic skills). Impact on business, charisma, drawing power (FUCK), etc would all come into play.

edit FUCK should probably read the posts above before I post.
Lol. Great minds think alike and all that. I do agree though. A list like that can't be decided on just 2 subjective factors. There has to be more and preferably some form of an objective standard too otherwise it's all just based on opinion, which it will be anyways with things like this but more so than usual.
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Old 12-13-2012, 12:32 PM   #11154 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Personally I don't see why you'd need to consider drawing and 'impact' when judging if wrestler A is the greatest of all time. I mean, I can appreciate its value when discussing 'the biggest/most successful wrestler' in the history of the business and there will always be those who remain convinced that being a significant draw extends into making a wrestler 'great' but to me all I consider is in ring ability & the ability to play a character (mannerisms, promos, using their charisma to magnify the character and their feuds) when considering whether someone is the 'greatest/best' wrestler of all time.

My top 10 from America would probably consist of Flair, Lawler, Funk, Hansen, Windham, Arn, Eddie, Mysterio, Steamboat & Bill Dundee. All these wrestlers are incredible talents for a variety of reasons. They're excellent in the ring, ranging from being great expressive performers and working a character like no other to being able to sell, build matches, control a crowd and inject their characters' personality into sequences to build a story and add meaning to a match. Now aside from Mysterio & Steamboat, I'd also call the rest great promo men. Some of them were purely passionate, some were able to capture a screen with their charisma and make you pay attention to them and others were just naturally gifted at perfecting a character and being a great interview. I really don't care whether they drew well or sold out arenas in their prime, its admittedly nice to know Flair and his work made a big impact nationwide in his prime and got over immensely, but to me his performances would still attain that quality whether he was wrestling in front of 000s or crowds of mid hundreds.

Don't get me wrong, drawing and impact on the profession goes a long way in ranking certain wrestlers on a level above that of their peers and certainly can be used to accurately call certain wrestlers as legends/icons of the industry. But that doesn't make them a naturally talented worker, a naturally talented performer able to take any angle/character and perfect it to get over rather than fail miserably. Eddie never drew or had the legacy to millions that someone like Hulk Hogan did, but I'd certainly have him in any 'GOAT discussion' simply because as an all round wrestling talent he was incredible. Hogan certainly belongs in any discussion about legends/icons/who was the most successful wrestler in history, but I've never understood why that extends into any discussion about him being a better talent than say, Tully Blanchard.
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Old 12-13-2012, 12:38 PM   #11155 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

I guess the way I look at is that drawing/impact can be used as distinguishing factors/a means of separation. In other words, take Punk and, say, HHH.

Punk: In-ring = 8, mic = 9
HHH: In-ring = 8.5, mic = 8.5

These values are strictly arbitrary, but for the sake of the example, bear with me. So, Punk and HHH, by these standards, are dead even at 17 points. This of course falls under the assumption that in-ring abilities and mic prowess hold equal weight. Now, some may argue that Punk is in fact higher up on the 'GOAT' scale (LOL @ them) than HHH, but using these standards alone, they'd be hard-pressed to make a valid arguement. However, if someone wanted to make a claim for HHH, I don't think it'd be unfair to bring up other factors such as impact and drawing (both of which go to HHH) as support.
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Old 12-13-2012, 12:46 PM   #11156 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

That's sort of the point I'm making though. If you disregard all that stuff, it purely comes down to opinions. Being a wrestler doesn't just mean actually wrestling. If that was the case then there would be no need for storylines or promos or anything like that and they would just go out and have matches every night, basically what is happening now which is why the product is so shit right now lol. The whole purpose of the matches is that they're supposed to be the culmination of a feud between two characters engrossed in a storyline for a couple of weeks or for however long. Most of them anyways. Of course you get exceptions to that where great matches happen just because but pro wrestling at its core is all about the characters and the storylines as well as the matches themselves. Then there's the fact that it is an actual business as well so the money issue has to come into play as far as I'm concerned. There are great wrestlers, there are great talkers, there are great this and great that. But if we're talking overall packages then things like impact, charisma, over-ness and drawing ability are just as important as ring skills and mic skills to me. I see no reason to disregard them as criteria.

Eddie takes a giant shit on Hogan in the ring and there's no doubt about how great he was simply as a wrestler. But Eddie didn't ignite the industry and become an icon like Hulk Hogan did. As much as I dislike him, I don't think it's fair to discount Hogan because he blew chunks in the ring because his impact is greater than anybody else's.

I guess it comes down to what your definition of 'great' means. Does it mean great regarding purely talent, does it mean great regarding success or does it mean some combination of the two? Who is the greatest of all time will depend on how you define the word great. For me personally, it's means more than just being great in the ring or being great on the mic. And like I said before, there really needs to be some measure of objectivity in order for a list or discussion on any topic really to be grounded and honest imo. But that's just me and obviously people are going to think differently.
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Old 12-13-2012, 12:49 PM   #11157 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

I guess for me, there exists a separation between discussing who is the most successful/biggest wrestler and who is the best of all time, in terms of actual talent in the ring and as a package (performance, working a crowd, charisma to make him engaging as a wrestler/character/interview). I think you can make a good argument for someone being 'the best' by talking about their talent in the ring/on the mic and how they play a character. To me, its irrelevant if Hogan sold out arenas when discussing if he's a better talent than Eddie Guerrero.

Of course you have to have talent to be the face of a company and be marketable to a nation and get over as much as Hogan did, but that to me only enhances his standing in any discussion about him being the quintessential icon of pro wrestling. It doesn't really make him a better rounded talent than Arn Anderson, it just makes him more famous and with a wider appeal.

I guess to me, as fans we shouldn't really be analysing how much a wrestler draws to argue they're a better talent than someone else. Its nice to know some our favourites were able to transcend the business and appeal to millions, but when objectively trying to argue as to who is a better wrestler: drawing, impact and legacy are things which can be controlled by a writer giving you a great gimmick, a promoter booking you expertly and other wrestlers being able to make engaging/star making programs to make someone into a superstar. Being a great worker, taking their charisma and passion and channeling it into a character which can create engaging feuds is something the talent themselves are responsible for.

That's just the way I see it. Being the best wrestler of all time and the most successful can be easily separated into two different discussions imo, rather than extending into one. The Rock is a tremendous talent in terms of charisma and marketability, but he's nowhere near the GOAT discussion for me because its the performance of a wrestler that impresses me more. Eddie would never come close to Rock in a discussion about legacy or impact, but I can't see what Rock does that Eddie doesn't do so much better.
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Old 12-13-2012, 12:50 PM   #11158 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Yeah, obviously, we'd need to classify what the term GOAT means (another reason why that thread is so fucking hilarious - a bunch of idiots running around in circles like chickens with their heads cut off spewing random facts). There could be a strictly GOAT performer (in-ring/mic skills) category, and then an overall GOAT category that takes those other variables into account.
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Old 12-13-2012, 12:56 PM   #11159 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

This all fine and dandy, having 2 separate GOAT categories but there can only be ONE greatest of all time which is where the conflict arises lol. Is it the GOAT wrestler or the GOAT superstar? Does Eddie's ring prowess get him the nod over Hogan's insane charisma? I don't know. Separating it into 2 lists obviously makes it easier to discuss similar topics but it also leaves no definitive answer which brings us back to square one lol.
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Old 12-13-2012, 12:59 PM   #11160 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Yeah, but if we don't separate it I don't see how we can come up with a list. It's like comparing apples to oranges. If someone comes up with a plausible system, great. As it stands I don't see how it'd work.
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