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Old 04-12-2012, 04:35 PM   #1081 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Top 5 for the year:

1. The Undertaker v Triple H - Wrestlemania XXVIII (****1/4)
2. CM Punk v Chris Jericho - Wrestlemania XXVIII (****)
3. Raw Chamber - Elimination Chamber (***3/4)
4. CM Punk v Mark Henry - Raw 4/2/12 (***1/2)
5. CM Punk v Daniel Bryan - Raw 1/30/12 (***1/2)
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Old 04-12-2012, 04:42 PM   #1082 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

In terms of card depth I'd say Wrestlemania 28 was probably the weakest since 25, I'd place it above 25 but I found Wrestlemania 26 and 27 in terms of quality of matches to be far far better.

26 is criminally underrated by some largely due to the horrific Vince/Bret match and the clusterfuck Divas tag. However the main event is one of the best Mania matches of all time, Cena/Batista is a very good heavyweight bomb throwing match with some nice callbacks to Summerslam 2008, Edge/Jericho is rather mediocre but has a decent finishing stretch, the tag title match despite going under 5 minutes was great for the time it got, the Legacy 3 way was in the card filler position but delivered a harmless match with some good sequences (in this aspect it was better than say Cody/Show or Orton/Kane from 28), Sheamus/HHH was a good little bout with an impressive showing from Sheamus and Punk/Mysterio was an excellent sub 7 minute bout.

27 whilst a clear step below still has Del Rio/Edge as a decent opener, hardly a blowaway match to start Wrestlemania and its just about 'good' given who's involved but still good viewing, Cody/Mysterio is a very good match with great callbacks to the feud and a nice display of hatred to reflect the personal nature of the feud, Punk/Orton was one of the better undercard matches in the last few years at Mania with some excellent selling by Orton made perfect by Punk's brilliant dickhead performance and facial expressions. HHH/Taker divides opinions but as a live spectacle it was incredibly engaging in the finishing stretch, although I'd put Orton/Punk as MOTN. Cena/Miz, the Corre tag and Lawler/Cole (see Lawler/Jimmy Hart 1980 for how to work that match right and get a damn good match as a result) are the major disappointments as well as the number of backstage segments and commercials which really hurt the overall flow of the ppv.

That being said, despite delivering in terms of good matches (26 far more than 27 IMO), both PPVs lacked that Wrestlemania feel and atmosphere to me. They felt like an excellent Summerslam PPV for example, but with WRESTLEMANIA you expect a bit more of the glitz and glamour and spectacle which I think these shows failed to capture despite being largely very good-great in terms of delivering more than a few good matches.

Wrestlemania 28 was for me the weakest in terms of card depth (though I suppose if you really love HIAC and Punk/Jericho and find Cena/Rock good people may put it above WM27), however it felt like a Wrestlemania. I just got this sense of spectacle and atmosphere that defines Wrestlemania as the biggest PPV of the year, they also got the overall pacing and structuring of the show well compared to last year minus the horrific decision to book the WHC squash as the opener which meant the first hour suffered in poor quality since Orton/Kane, the Divas tag nor Cody/Show could deliver a good-great match and thus it wasn't until HIAC when you got the sense business was about to pick up.

So yeah, after a lot of rambling I guess I'm trying to say this year WWE despite delivering a poorer overall card in terms of top-bottom match quality than what we've seen at Wrestlemania 26 and debatebly Wrestlemania 27 managed to strike a good balance between wrestling and atmosphere and as a result managed to make it feel like a truly massive event similar to Wrestlemania 24. It really felt like 'WRESTLEMANIA' as opposed to 26 and 27 which lacked that truly 'epic' atmosphere and spectacle that truly makes a Wrestlemania feel special.
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Old 04-12-2012, 05:19 PM   #1083 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

26 was actually a pretty great WM looking back:

ShoMiz vs. Morrison and Truth- ***
As said by Segunda, great match for such a short time. I honestly don't remember the match too well, but I remember it being a pretty good opener.

Orton vs. Rhodes vs. Dibiase- ***
I enjoyed this match quite a bit, and really liked the Rhodes/Dibiase exchange. It's amazing what happened with them. When Dibiase first debuted, just naturally he looked like the bigger star, but as Legacy progressed Rhodes' starpower rose and Dibiase's had shrunk. They were about even at Mania, but by the time they got together in 2011, Rhodes had far surpassed Dibiase. Amazing. But yeah, overall it was a very good match and Orton getting the win and cementing his face status (if it wasn't already cemented by then) was good.

MITB- ***1/4
Not the greatest MITB, but as usual was a fun match. I still lol at how long it took Swagger to unhook the briefcase. Him winning was a huge shocker. Then he won the World Title a couple of nights later... and then went on to have one of if not the worst title reign of all time. I hope Swagger enjoyed the moment, because it'll probably never happen again. Also this was the last MITB match at Mania.

HHH vs. Sheamus- ***1/4
Actually this was a good little match. Nothing too spectacular, but Sheamus hung in there with HHH. It was also nice to see HHH in an under-card match for Mania for the first time in at least 10 years, and while Sheamus didn't look spectacular in defeat, he didn't look bad either. Overall I'd actually say it's better than all of HHH's WM singles main events.

Punk vs. Mysterio- ***1/2
MOTN to this point, and even though it was short, it was very, very sweet. Honestly wish they would've been given more time, but Punk and Mysterio do have some great chemistry. At least the series continued. Mysterio beating Punk though was kinda lame, but what can you do?

Bret Hart vs. Vince McMahon- DUD
Who would've thought Bret Hart would be in the worst Wrestlemania match of all time? Or one of the worst anyway... since King/Cole at WM27 definitely gives it a run for it's money. I mean god, it was only 11 minutes apparently but I remember watching it and feeling like an hour had passed. Just awful.

Edge vs. Jericho- ****
Excellent match between the two. It was a rock solid bout from top to finish, and the finish was great. Edge brought his A-game for Mania... which all things considered isn't saying much, but Jericho's A-game kept the match afloat. The better of the two title matches and an excellent one at that. I was kinda hoping for Edge to take the gold, but at the same time I felt a Jericho win would be more beneficial for when Edge did finally capture the World Title from Jericho. It made Jericho look strong but didn't do anything to Edge's credibility. Of course, all of it didn't matter because later in the week Jack Thwagger took the title off Jericho.

Cena vs. Batista- ***3/4
A great heavyweight match between the two. I prefer their Summerslam 08match, but this was great as well. They do have some chemistry and the storytelling in the match was good. The workrate was okay, and while Batista tapping out is something I didn't feel should happen (he should've been pinned), I guess it was still an okay finish. Cena becomes champ again, and Batista is at the tail end of his career. Great match.

Undertaker vs. Shawn Michaels- ****1/2
Fantastic match. Great wrestling, psychology, storytelling, ending, and pace. On paper looking at this next to their WM25 match, I should put it above their WM26 match, but there is a lot more to it that I explained a short time ago, and won't go into detail again. Still it was a classic match and a great way for Shawn to go out.

So yeah, really the only bad match was the Hart/McMahon match... and the divas match which I can't remember at all. But I really like how for most of the night the matches seemed to just get better each and every match. Starts off good with the tag, the triple threat tops that, the MITB tops that, HHH/Sheamus is on-par with that, Mysterio/Punk tops that, Edge/Jericho tops that, Batista/Cena holds it's own, and it tops off with a classic main event. I actually need to go back and watch the event though.


Quote:
Punk/Orton was one of the better undercard matches in the last few years at Mania with some excellent selling by Orton made perfect by Punk's brilliant dickhead performance and facial expressions. HHH/Taker divides opinions but as a live spectacle it was incredibly engaging in the finishing stretch, although I'd put Orton/Punk as MOTN.
You too? High-five!

WM27:

Edge/Del Rio- ***1/2 (It gets a little boost from me for being Edge's last match)
Rhodes/Mysterio- ***1/4
8-man tag- * (Don't remember this match too well besides it being a squash)
Orton/Punk- ***1/2
Cole/Lawler- DUD
Undertaker/HHH- ***1/2
6-mixed tag match- ... don't remember this at all.
Miz vs. Cena- *3/4


WM28 (I re-watched most matches earlier in the week):

Sheamus/Bryan- 1/4*
Kane/Orton- ***1/4
Show/Rhodes- *1/2
Divas Tag- 1/2*
Undertaker/HHH- ****
Team Johnny vs. Team Teddy- ***
Punk/Jericho- ****1/4
Cena/Rock- ***1/2

So I definitely get what Segunda is saying. I'd still put it above WM27 since Kane/Orton to me was a good match, Taker/HHH was better than the previous year, Punk/Jericho was fantastic, and Cena/Rock was a great main event. I'd put Punk/Jericho, Taker/HHH, and Cena/Rock all above every match from the previous year. Also WM27 had Cole/Lawler, which was far worse than the Bryan squash and the divas tag match combined.
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Old 04-12-2012, 05:20 PM   #1084 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Segunda Caida View Post
Any reason in particular? I can appreciate my high rating was entirely down to the simple story and both men just displaying a range of qualities I appreciate more in wrestling these days, particular the character work from Henry, the selling from Punk and the excellent build to the eventual kick that took Henry down. Not to mention I adored the finish in protecting both men and feeling rather organic for a screwy finish, which isn't something I've come to expect from WWE TV Matches.
Wasn't really a lover of the finish really, as soon as Punk left the ring I knew the match was over as did a few of the crowd. Yeah I was a very good match, especially for a TV show portraying a simple David and Goliath story. Punk sells well but don't really praise selling unless you do a Benoit at WM 21 and sell perfectly. I mean it's not hard to sell a back injury although Cena would pop up here as his selling is awful, he always forgets, maybe because he is superman.

I know time shouldn't be a factor, as I have an 8 minute Punk/Rey from WM 26 at ***1/2 but this was around 10 minutes, I enjoyed it but nowhere near for me anyway a **** rating match.
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Old 04-12-2012, 05:27 PM   #1085 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

I don't get that bit about 'don't praise selling', I mean reading your post it sounds like you're saying Benoit's performance renders praising of selling obsolete since it may not be as good as his. I could be reading into that entirely wrong tbh, but that's how it came across at first glance. Rest of your argument is sound and concise though.

Personally I loved the finish since it felt like the culmination of all of Punk's desperation offence working long enough to weaken Henry, however true to the theme of the match Henry was still a physical force to be able to dish out one last counter to halt Punk's momentum. Punk not making the 10 count was a certainty by the 6 count but I'd look past that and focus on it being a finish that built off of all of Henry's offence and Punk's injury from the night before, as well as the finish only occurring because Punk had finally managed to weaken Henry which he'd struggled to do all match. Felt like a real 'icing on the cake' sort of finish in paying off to all the work beforehand, rather than a cheap DQ or intereferance finish that would have killed the match dead.

@Obis, I actually think Wrestlemania 26 as a top to bottom show would be pushing my top 5 Wrestlemania's. Hard to think off the top of my head but 24, 23, 22, maybe 21 would be close. 17 isn't the super duper awesome show to me that others think of it but it would be in contention for maybe the 5th spot, 19 I haven't seen in forever.

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Old 04-12-2012, 05:35 PM   #1086 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Cena/Batista and Edge/Jericho are probably the most overrated matches in WM history. What a pile of mediocrity.
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Old 04-12-2012, 05:39 PM   #1087 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

A certain match from Wrestlemania 12 and a certain match from Wrestlemania 21 would be bigger candidates for more overrated IMO.

Cena/Batista isn't blowaway awesome, but I dug it as two big dudes beating the shit out of each other, some fairly impressive counters and transitions and the callback spot to Cena's injury at Summerslam 2008. Far from a great match but I think there's enough in there for it to hold its own as a good main event match compared to say Orton/HHH, HHH/Cena/Orton from 24, Orton/Angle/Rey from 22, Cena/JBL, HHH/Batista etc.
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Old 04-12-2012, 05:39 PM   #1088 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

I'll have to watch the match again, it's getting too much love.

In regards to selling I don't think it's hard to hold your back when you get flung around or collapse whilst attempting the GTS. If you and I were wrestlers we could sell easily, it isn't exactly hard. In regards to Benoit at Mania, it was his overall performance and determination to win that title but failing many times and in doing so taking huge bumps and it felt to me anyway that he was genuinely battered and bruised and that the MITB physically destroyed him. That's alot different than holding your back.

If we look at Cena/Michaels from Wrestlemania 23, Cena started to no sell the leg when Michaels was working on it for a good 5 minutes and Michaels was genuinely pissed about it. It's not hard to hobble around the ring is it? In Cena case it was.

I love Mania 26, one of my favourite shows ever apart from Vince/Bret.

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Old 04-12-2012, 05:45 PM   #1089 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Yeah, Edge/Jericho and Cena/Batista did nothing for me. HBK/Taker isn't a great match to me either, so you can see why I think WM26 isn't too spectacular.
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Old 04-12-2012, 05:46 PM   #1090 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

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I'll have to watch the match again, it's getting too much love.

In regards to selling I don't think it's hard to hold your back when you get flung around or collapse whilst attempting the GTS. If you and I were wrestlers we could sell easily, it isn't exactly hard. In regards to Benoit at Mania, it was his overall performance and determination to win that title but failing many times and in doing so taking huge bumps and it felt to me anyway that he was genuinely battered and bruised and that the MITB physically destroyed him. That's alot different than holding your back.

If we look at Cena/Michaels from Wrestlemania 23, Cena started to no sell the leg when Michaels was working on it for a good 5 minutes and Michaels was genuinely pissed about it. It's not hard to hobble around the ring is it? In Cena case it was.
Well yeah selling is incredibly simple in terms of limping, incorporating the injury into spots etc. Still I don't see how its simplicity takes away from someone executing it well, I mean Eddie sells the blood loss (ok more legit than performance selling) and beating at Judgement Day 2004 as well as anyone has sold a beating, I don't think it makes his selling any less impressive and emotionally engaging just because its something all workers should theoretically be able to do (selling in general, his selling isn't something you'll see for a long time).

Cena's a great seller in terms of bumping and making you engrossed in the workover, his long term limb selling leaves a lot to be desired but he actually takes a beating as good as anyone on the roster, of course the fact he's so polarizing in terms of support/heat only adds to the match and workover, but he's still a great seller in terms of eating offence and making you wondering how he can comeback: Umaga series is probably the best display of this.

As for Wrestlemania 23, on last watch I'm pretty sure Cena shaking off the legwork didn't bother me too much, I don't recall HBK spending a great deal of time on the workover, rather something like a couple of minutes of focus before switiching his offence. Pretty sure off of memory Cena shakes his leg a bit afterwards and then gradually sells it less and less which as I said on last watch wasn't much of an issue. Pretty sure it felt like a temporary form of HBK retaining control rather than a workover he was basing as his best hope of winning the match, so it never felt essential and the entire focus of his offence nor did it play overly into the match story: as opposed to HBK/Jericho Wrestlemania 19 and the blowing off of Jericho's backwork.

Of course I haven't seen it for a while, but I'm definitely sure HBK's leg work didn't come off as a long workover by conventional limb workover segments.

@Yeah1993 you're lack of love for HBK/Taker II makes me a sad panda. I honestly thought it had the more subtle elements of a great match compared to Wrestlemania 25 which was built on the exchanges, though the atmosphere and spectacle is understandable in creating emotion in the match.

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