Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread - Page 106 - Wrestling Forum : WWE, TNA, Debate League, Wrestling Videos, Women of Wrestling Forums
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Old 04-11-2012, 12:56 PM   #1051 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by Hohenheim of Light View Post
I will now direct you to the touchstone method of criticism, most notably used by Matthew Arnold.

http://literarism.blogspot.in/2011/0...od-arnold.html
Thank you. I at least know where you are coming from. I don't necessarily follow Arnold 100%, but I doubt anyone does. That's the problem with writing; true objectivity is quite rare, and often strays in subjectivity or even perspectivity.
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Old 04-11-2012, 05:55 PM   #1052 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by Vader13 View Post
Obviously I've missed the answer you gave, would have figured it'd have been easier and more polite to give me an answer but whatever I'm used to reading your arrogant posts. It only makes sense that someone like you would have an irrational hatred of someone that most likely can't be justified.
I see no reason to be polite to you, someone who (like it seems many here) doesn't care in the least about being polite to me.

That said, you want me to articulate a few of the reasons I dislike Taker? Fine' Here's a few.

1] The man is old & slow. Yes, so is my grandfather... But my grandfather doesn't get paid major money to work in a limited space with people half his age (or less), & on shows where the time every night/week is limited. The truly sad thing about this is that you won't see much evidence of it due to carrying & other things Taker's opponents will often do because of the respect they have for him & what he has done for the business in the past. (As former WWE employee Kevin Kelly wrote recently, everyone will make $ if people come to see Taker, HBK, & the like... True, but when the man upstairs eternally retires the men involved in that match, many people won't know the ability of guys like Danielson because Taker & the others get so much of the time now.)

2] Which brings me to my second piece... Guys like Taker (& to a lesser point, Rock) have the respect of so many in the back, & rightfully so. The only problem is (as I said in #1) the time will come (or in Rock's case, has before) when they are one way or another unable to work (at least not as well/much as they once were). There are many guys (Punk & Bryan both come to mind) young enough & talented enough to keep the audience & their attention. Imagine how much it would help that if, say, Rock or Taker were to job to one of the young ones! But the same way their past work has earned respect from others, it is clear they have developed an ego from the same.

That is just a small piece of it. There is plenty, but it's all repeating myself anyway, & unlike Rock, I don't like to live off of what I've already said.
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Old 04-11-2012, 06:01 PM   #1053 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Im pretty sure Steamboat and Flair got a 6 star match from Meltzer in the 80s`
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Old 04-11-2012, 06:30 PM   #1054 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by TJChurch View Post
1] The man is old & slow. Yes, so is my grandfather... But my grandfather doesn't get paid major money to work in a limited space with people half his age (or less), & on shows where the time every night/week is limited. The truly sad thing about this is that you won't see much evidence of it due to carrying & other things Taker's opponents will often do because of the respect they have for him & what he has done for the business in the past. (As former WWE employee Kevin Kelly wrote recently, everyone will make $ if people come to see Taker, HBK, & the like... True, but when the man upstairs eternally retires the men involved in that match, many people won't know the ability of guys like Danielson because Taker & the others get so much of the time now.)
He's wrestled two matches since the beginning of 2011. Point to promos and video packages, but do you REALLY think that's a Taker thing and not a Vince/WWE in general thing?


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Originally Posted by TJChurch View Post
2] Which brings me to my second piece... Guys like Taker (& to a lesser point, Rock) have the respect of so many in the back, & rightfully so. The only problem is (as I said in #1) the time will come (or in Rock's case, has before) when they are one way or another unable to work (at least not as well/much as they once were). There are many guys (Punk & Bryan both come to mind) young enough & talented enough to keep the audience & their attention. Imagine how much it would help that if, say, Rock or Taker were to job to one of the young ones! But the same way their past work has earned respect from others, it is clear they have developed an ego from the same.
Quote:
He's wrestled two matches since the beginning of 2011.
Pretty sure that time came a long time ago and he hasn't been hogging any time up or stealing any spotlights. Taker having an ego just sounds like bullshit. He's been willing to lose his own "streak" for years to people like Orton, who wasn't even a WWE emplyee for three years at the time. WWE themselves seem to simply refuse to put anyone against Taker who isn't already an established "legend" in their eyes. That's not Taker's doing.

Basically all I got from that post is "I don't like him because WWE don't push young people." I can't get you to like him, but it sounds more like visceral disliking. Which isn't bad or anything, everyone has bias whether they think so or not. I'm not 100% sure why I despise Paul London myself.
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Old 04-11-2012, 06:44 PM   #1055 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by Yeah1993 View Post
He's wrestled two matches since the beginning of 2011.
You're not including the time others waste talking to/about him. (Such a thing is like they do for guys like Rock, when they aren't on the regular roster.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeah1993 View Post
Point to promos and video packages, but do you REALLY think that's a Taker thing and not a Vince/WWE in general thing?
What rules-out the possibility that it's both?! The two ware not mutually-exclusive.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeah1993 View Post
Pretty sure that time came a long time ago and he hasn't been hogging any time up or stealing any spotlights.
His entrances alone seem to take forever, & that's only counting the time before he even hits the stage. Then, the hour-long crawl to the ring, etc... And each move takes longer (probably due in large part to his advanced age, etc.).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeah1993 View Post
Taker having an ego just sounds like bullshit.
As the Ziggler shirt says, "Not bragging if you back it up." There was a time I enjoyed watching the man/his matches. But I wonder how much what he did has earned of what he's gotten since then, & how much Vince/WWE have just given him? (Perhaps a mix, believing your own hype, doing what they let you get away with, or something?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeah1993 View Post
WWE themselves seem to simply refuse to put anyone against Taker who isn't already an established "legend" in their eyes. That's not Taker's doing.
For several WMs now, I've seen what I feel is a circular discussion going on: Some feel Taker's streak should end to an established guy (those are the people backing HHH & HBK matches), whereas some say ending the streak should be a rub for a young/future star.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeah1993 View Post
Basically all I got from that post is "I don't like him because WWE don't push young people." I can't get you to like him, but it sounds more like visceral disliking. Which isn't bad or anything, everyone has bias whether they think so or not. I'm not 100% sure why I despise Paul London myself.
It's certainly not that; I see WWE often pushing young people (albeit largely later-generation stars like Orton, Cody, DiBiase, etc.)... But I like/dislike (some of) those & many on the roster for much different reasons.

I'm not sure why you despise Paul London, either... Can't help you, since I don't.

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Old 04-11-2012, 06:53 PM   #1056 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

I dont think its right for anyone to end the streak at this point

last guy with a legit chance was Orton. And then maybe when Taker was begging Shawn to go not retire during the Wrestlemania 26 match.

But now? Its the kind of thing that I believe can haunt your career forever. I dont think ANYONE wants to go down as the guy who ended the last truly magical thing in wrestling. Nobody is good enough to do it, or simply doesnt need it.

And has for his matches, he's delivered pretty much the match that stole the show since Wrestlemania 23. He may have gotten older but he could be the best big game wrestler I ever saw. When the chips are down he ALWAYS gives it everything he's got and delivers

And really? bitching about the length of his entrance? how old are you? 6? His gimmick entrance and streak are one of the few genuinely special things left in wrestling. When him, Shawn and Triple H spoke of the end of the era, I think what they meant was, the end of the larger than life mega star. Undertaker is the last one, he's a dinosaur of an age were wrestlers were like the demi-gods. And looking around, nobody will ever match that. Too much overexposure has killed that sense. Not Cena, not Rock, not brock, nobody. He's old school, and proud of it
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Old 04-11-2012, 07:02 PM   #1057 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by redeadening View Post
I dont think its right for anyone to end the streak at this point
I have been telling fans online for years that to me, the end of such a streak psychologically would be a great reason for the guy/character to retire. Also, in both the case of HBK & HHH, I thought after he beat them the first time, ending the streak in revenge would have been great. Now? I don't know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hell_kaiser View Post
And has for his matches, he's delivered pretty much the match that stole the show since Wrestlemania 23.
I believe I saw it here around Mania that some thought it was Match of the Night, & others disliked it. I can tell you I was the latter, & doubt I was alone in that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hell_kaiser View Post
When the chips are down he ALWAYS gives it everything he's got and delivers
No question he gives it everything he's got.... But I don't think that is all that much anymore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hell_kaiser View Post
His gimmick entrance and streak are one of the few genuinely special things left in wrestling.
Genuinely different? No doubt. Special? OK. In a good way? No.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hell_kaiser View Post
When him, Shawn and Triple H spoke of the end of the era, I think what they meant was, the end of the larger than life mega star. Undertaker is the last one
If I remember correctly, HHH said that he was also one of the last ones. He was right about both... Which is why that cell was the perfect place to end the career.
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Old 04-11-2012, 07:07 PM   #1058 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by Legend View Post
I wasn't moaning. I don't mind star ratings. I never said I did. I simply stated that I would never give a match Five Stars because of my nihilistic view on all forms of art. This opinion was then challenged. I therefore explained my point of view and asked for one of you to explain yours.

No one did. What a great discussion.
Well your point didn't come off too well but now I get you.

I don't see star ratings from DUD to perfection. If its one of the best matches I've ever seen with storytelling and psychology added then I'll consider a 5 star rating but not because it's perfection, as nothing is perfect.

The rare full 5 matches I have are just the rare epic matches that come along once every few years which defines what wrestling is. Matches which you wouldn't feel emotion to or compelled to compared to your normal run of the mill matches.

For me Punk/Cena springs to mind. Some people have this match at the full 5, even Meltzer. I could watch this match now till the end of time? It was the best built match in years, the crowd were amazing, story telling top notch, perfectly booked, etc.

Flaws were the no selling by Cena as per, so in all it's not perfect, but it's match that is just seperated from every PPV match I've seen in the last 5 years, easy.
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Old 04-11-2012, 08:44 PM   #1059 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by TJChurch View Post
I have been telling fans online for years that to me, the end of such a streak psychologically would be a great reason for the guy/character to retire. Also, in both the case of HBK & HHH, I thought after he beat them the first time, ending the streak in revenge would have been great. Now? I don't know.



I believe I saw it here around Mania that some thought it was Match of the Night, & others disliked it. I can tell you I was the latter, & doubt I was alone in that.



No question he gives it everything he's got.... But I don't think that is all that much anymore.



Genuinely different? No doubt. Special? OK. In a good way? No.



If I remember correctly, HHH said that he was also one of the last ones. He was right about both... Which is why that cell was the perfect place to end the career.
I dont see what's so wrong about letting Taker has his streak. Considering he dedicated his entire career to be a side character, i think its a bit of an honour, especially in contrast to Shawn and Triple H who were often the main stars

And as for Taker's matches in the post Wrestlemania 23 era (Taker I believe, hit 'big time' mode at No way out 2006 and continued until Summerslam 2008, afterwards he just had amazing Wrestlemania matches), whats wrong with them? why didnt they impress you?
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Old 04-11-2012, 10:17 PM   #1060 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by Vader13 View Post
Obviously I've missed the answer you gave, would have figured it'd have been easier and more polite to give me an answer but whatever I'm used to reading your arrogant posts. It only makes sense that someone like you would have an irrational hatred of someone that most likely can't be justified.
It's not arrogance so much as just someone looking for attention and trying to get a rise out of people. It's obviously working well for everyone.
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