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An interesting paradox of Roman Reigns the underdog

3K views 35 replies 32 participants last post by  Mr. I 
#1 ·
I find the whole Roman Reigns / crowd reaction dynamic very interesting right now. He's booked as if he's an underdog, yet most think he's the opposite because he's perceived as hand-chosen and guaranteed to continue to be pushed, etc.

However, the crowd reactions tell a different story.

It is unlikely that Roman Reigns will end Wrestlemania as the WWE WHC Champion to a chorus of tribal cheers in front of 100,000+ people.

Therefore, in real life... he actually IS an underdog. Not in terms of booking, but in regards to finally winning over the WWE Universe.

Every time he walks into an arena, I'm interested in what crowd reaction he'll get. Has he failed to win people over? Has he turned the corner?

I just find it really interesting to support the real-life underdog version of Roman Reigns, not the scripted character, but the actual person and to see if he can successfully achieve the unlikely goal of winning over a 100,000+ crowd.

I'd find it incredible if he can actually win everyone over organically within the confines of the lame micromanagement of his character.

It's the one thing that Vince can't control - and that gives Reigns an interesting dynamic heading into Wrestlemania IMO. But I'm still fresh from my 10 years away from watching, so I might just be excited about this because I missed the whole Cena thing... what do you guys think?
 
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#2 ·
I get what you are saying. WWE have booked him so badly as a babyface that the fans now dislike him. Ironically turning him into the opposite type of underdog they were trying to create.

WWE's mistake has been trying to merge the Austin/Bryan/Cena stories into Reigns development, and having Rock flirt with Reigns celebrations only added to this deadly cocktail.

They've given him the Bryan underdog push 2.0, right down to having 2 short title reigns, followed by emerging victorious against all odds at Wrestlemania.

They gave him the same run as Cena, winning a world title pretty much exactly 3 years after a main roster debut.

Then more recently they have brought in Vince to badly revisit skits from the AE, with Reigns being anti-Authority.

The main difference in all 3:

No plans for Bryan to ever win the title at WM30 therefore he was a real life underdog and a kayfabe one, so it mixed well, and the crowd ate it up. Bryan also had a loyal fanbase built up from 15 years of wrestling and a good WWE run.

Cena had been training to be a wrestler for 6 years before his Main Roster debut, then proceeded to get over on his own. Reigns had less than 2 years of training before his Main Roster debut, and has not managed to get over either on his own, or with aforementioned help.

Steve Austin was awesome. Reigns is not. Austin was funny as fuck, charasmatic, and by this point had his character solidly locked in, and only after a good 10+ years of wrestling experience began to get his big push. Reigns doesn't really have a character, other than the guy who is there for some reason (looks). He also has no wrestling experience, and that clearly shows. And he is a charisma vacuum, he literally can't talk, he mumbles everything. I can't hear him when he talks.

Fans have rejected him because Vince has taken a guy with good looks, and athleticism, but no personality, and no mic skills, and thrown him into several Main Events, given him World Titles, when he is simply not interesting to 80% + of the audience.
 
#5 ·
I think there are a lot of people that don't realize that Cena was way WAY over before he got his huge push. He wasn't getting that push because he was handpicked, he was getting it because he was the most popular guy on the roster. His stale 10 year push has worn fans down to the point of him getting hate.

On the other hand, Reigns is hand chosen & WWE are telling people to like him. The problem is that that mainly only works on casuals. They can pick virtually any guy on the roster that they want to, and pushing him hard will get him a lot of casual fans. You can't win over the hardcore fanbase in the same way, and I don't see Roman ever being able to do that how WWE wants him to. He's just not cut out for the face of the company spot.

As much as a lot of us will hate on Cena sometimes, he's actually pretty talented. He can do everything that a wrestler is supposed to do be able to do well. That's the real root of the problem with Roman. He lacks in too many areas, and it's totally visible to people paying attention. Among other things, he's boring on the mic, his cardio is awful, his character sucks, and he can't consistently put on a good match.
 
#11 ·
I think there are a lot of people that don't realize that Cena was way WAY over before he got his huge push. He wasn't getting that push because he was handpicked, he was getting it because he was the most popular guy on the roster. His stale 10 year push has worn fans down to the point of him getting hate.

On the other hand, Reigns is hand chosen & WWE are telling people to like him. The problem is that that mainly only works on casuals. They can pick virtually any guy on the roster that they want to, and pushing him hard will get him a lot of casual fans. You can't win over the hardcore fanbase in the same way, and I don't see Roman ever being able to do that how WWE wants him to. He's just not cut out for the face of the company spot.

As much as a lot of us will hate on Cena sometimes, he's actually pretty talented. He can do everything that a wrestler is supposed to do be able to do well. That's the real root of the problem with Roman. He lacks in too many areas, and it's totally visible to people paying attention. Among other things, he's boring on the mic, his cardio is awful, his character sucks, and he can't consistently put on a good match.
Now that's just not true.

The ironic thing is, if you listen to the guy talk out of character you see that he does have a personality and he could show it, and does show it just when they give him some freedom.
 
#9 ·
Even in real life he is far from an underdog though because he is not really doing it himself. He has the boss in his back pocket who is pulling every stunt and trick in the book to get him to succeed. While other wrestler's don't have that safefy net and don't have that kind of booking. Other wrestlers don't get chance after chance to succeed, they might get 1 opportunity and if it fails they get pushed to the bottom and forgotten about. But Roman will get neverending chances.
 
#18 ·
Even in real life he is far from an underdog though because he is not really doing it himself. He has the boss in his back pocket who is pulling every stunt and trick in the book to get him to succeed. While other wrestler's don't have that safefy net and don't have that kind of booking.
I'd argue that sitting in Vince's pocket is a blessing and a curse when Vince is 70 years old.

It means he'll never fade into obscurity on the roster, however it doesn't necessarily help him break through the ceiling and become a superstar with the fans. In fact, his favouritism makes him less likeable.

Therefore, this Road to Wrestlemania will be quite interesting as we get to find out if Roman Reigns (in real life) can fight the real-life uphill battle of getting himself over in front of 100,000+ people. This isn't fake, this isn't scripted - it's reality.

That's what makes it kinda cool to back him in to succeed.
 
#10 ·
He's as much of an underdog as Cena is and that's why a large portion of fans will never accept him (along with the perceived lck of paying his dues) you cannot be the underdog when your a 2,3,4, 10, 12 etc time heavyweight champ. You cannot be an underdog when everyone knows you're the hand picked 2nd coming of Jesus.
 
#12 ·
It's just WWEs predictably warped minds.



Everybody knows an underdog story works in practically any format, and it's really simple to do.

But WWE being WWE book an underdog story where the underdog is 10x stronger than his opponents, so you get the 'payoff' AKA the underdog finally rising above the odds in the first fucking page in the book.
 
#13 ·
Ironman8 said:
Has he failed to win people over?
Yes. He's failed miserably at that and if was going to happen....it would have happened by now. People keep thinking there's some hidden missing ingredient to Roman getting over, but there's not. They've tried everything, they've shoved him repeatedly down the audience's throat, it ain't going to happen for him.

Has he turned the corner?
No. And he likely never will. He's simply not good enough to be the top guy.
 
#14 ·
Reigns is the Lex Luger of this generation. VincE has a hard on for him and he has literally sacrificed pretty much all the heels to try to make project Samoan superman a sucsess. Add to that whenever any other wrestler starts to get over organically they have had their momentum killed. Ambrose who has consistently got cheers everywhere has been booked like shit until his recent Owens feud but has still managed to get more consistent pops than Reigns despite the whoLe of the main roster programming being designed to get him over, he squashed the L O.N and the Wyatt's, Cesaro was over more than Reigns without saying a word the next week he loses to Show on Raw, Owens has been getting more and more over suddenly he loses to Kalisto and Ziggler on TV. Years ago when Vinces chosen didn't come off he then went with the audience and pushed the gut they chose. Also Austin, The Rock, Cena and many others had a boh heel push first, building theor character up and then when they finally turned face their pops were huge because the fans cared. Reigns charcater is one dimensional and everyone knows he's the chosen one so they should have had him turn on Ambrose viciously in the WWE title tournament final and become an exaggerated version of what he is the chosen one. This also would have elevated Ambrose to top face and Ambrose as the anti Authority underdog works so much better and feels more natural, shit even a tweener Wyatt vs Authority is a better fit.

All the great stars of the last 20 years have been way over before their monster push, Reigns was not, is not and doesn't have the abilities to get over as THE top babyface at this time. How many times mist his push be rejected before they realise this.
 
#15 ·
Even if the real life Roman is an underdog with regards to fan reaction, that doesn't alter the fact he's still the entire opposite when it comes to his booking and that's what is causing the fans to reject him.
Unless WWE finally swallow their pride and stop concentrating all their efforts solely on him and him alone the crowds will continue to reject him as we're not going to accept something Vince tells us too without having our own opinion about it first.


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#20 ·
This whole trying to get him over using the Bryan booking just seems so counter-productive, the times when he has got a good response from the audience are when they have booked him as more of a badass, but then they go and back off from that approach. It does seem like it is not enough in the WWE for somebody to get over, they have to get over in the manner that the WWE intends.
 
#21 ·
I agree, Roman is an underdog against the fan base. However, this is no one's fault but Vince's. He, and creative, have rushed Roman into a position that his character simply wasn't ready for. We liked Roman in the Shield, but after the break up who suddenly got into the title picture with no explanation while the other two went out there and worked their asses of to tell a story? Since the Shield broke up, Roman's character has still been riding the Shield moniker nearly 2 years after it's implosion, instead of finding his own identity, which was very lazy on creative's part. Seth Rollins and Dean Ambrose came out of that break up and became their own separate entities and gave is a glimpse of who their characters are without the SWAT gear. Roman is still Shield and has been Shield since we met him, which gets stale after a while. Roman needs his own look, his own character and needs to put the Shield to rest. We need to know who Roman Reigns really is without the Shield, and we've been unable to figure that out which is a big part of why he isn't over in every city.

Another thing, too, is that they need to keep him and Ambrose as far away from each other as remotely possible because it just makes Roman's attempts to get over with the crowd on his own so much more difficult, which isn't fair to him at all.
 
#22 ·
Crowd reactions are not as important to Roman as you may think, sure Vince would rather have him universally cheered, but having him booed is not something that gives him nightmares.

Reigns is still a successful top guy as a the casual representation, he wil be a big star regardless of his crowd reactions.
 
#26 ·
You could be right in regards to their desire to appeal to casuals, but I also think he seems pretty passionate about winning fans' respect (e.g. that speech he made after winning the title in phily). His career isn't on the line or anything, as he can always turn heel if it continues. But going back to the thread premise, as a fan I'm finding it really fun to support Roman Reigns from this real-life "popularity underdog" perspective.

If he wins the title at 'Mania to a huge pop from 100,000+ people, that'll be an awesome payoff for my investment in him this past year.

And now... I want it to happen!

It's a little sad that WWE booking isn't the reason I'm hoping he wins over the fans at 'Mania, but I'm enjoying the product a lot more by finding my own, more comfortable way to get behind Roman Reigns, instead of feeling like I'm being force-fed.

After all, the last year has revolved around him, so we can either find something interesting about him by ourselves or we have to mentally switch off for a majority of the story and then complain about it on here.
 
#23 ·
How can he be the underdog when he never cleanly loses? Ever? Reigns has had four losses since joining the main roster in November 2012. The last was in July. ALL were due to outside interference of some sort.

Compare that the Steve Austin, The Rock, John Cena, and Batista. Even The Undertaker. All of them had clean pinfall defeats in their first 39 months. Yet Reigns just wins and wins and wins and wins, and is pushed as some sort of underdog. It's as if the NFL pushed the New England Patriots as underdogs, or the NBA pushing Golden State as "rising to overcome the odds". It's ludicrous and only works if the fanbase has been around for only a few months, or a handful of weeks.

The only real comparison is the push given to Ultimate Warrior, who had one televised loss (a screwjob) to Rick Rude during his his first three years (plus a clean loss to Andre in Italy in 1988).
 
#24 ·
As long as hardcore fans feel Vince wants him succeed he will NEVER get over as a full time face. The one thing all the most over faces of the last 5 years had in common is that a lot of hardcore fans were convinced that Vince hated and didn't want Punk, Ziggler, Bryan, and now Ambrose to really succeed.

With hardcore fans its not enough to just write somebody to be a face or heel you need to give them reasons. And with today's meh storylines a lot of fans look to backstage to find out who the good and bad guys are because for some the real life aspect of the business is more interesting than the Kayfabe aspect.

I don't see how Reigns ever gets proper top face reactions. He just represents too much that a lot of the hardcore fans don't care for.

He looks like the type of guy Vince likes, he wrestles a style that isn't really in with the most passionate and loud fans, he's not good by any measure on the mic, he has family connections, and traditionally he's higher up on the card than people with his experience gets. That's a recipe to have fans that care the most be uninterested in you.

If he's going to be their FOTC then he needs to be on the HHH and Ric Flair heel that runs the place top guy status.
 
#29 · (Edited)
There are several other threads about feeling sorry for him, but I guess the main difference here is that it's interesting to see the battle with crowd reactions play out - it's more interesting to hope he achieves the corporate goal of getting over than it is to suspend disbelief in the current environment.

A lot of us like to put ourselves in the shoes of the booker or the shoes of Vince McMahon and create alternate ideas that we think would be best for business.

Well, let's say you are the owner.

Reigns getting over organically is worth hundreds of millions to your company.

You've spent almost 2 years trying to push him into the spotlight... but the fans have rejected. Your hand-picked star has been booed out of every significant main event. You can't get him over.

The Road to Wrestlemania heats up, and you've got 100,000 people to win over in just two months, otherwise you'll go with Plan B.

From this perspective, what we've got is something that:

a. Is very unlikely to happen
b. Is completely decided by the public (WWE has no genuine control over it)
c. Was ripped away last year due to poor reactions, with a backup plan given the go-ahead
d. Is therefore the real-life payoff of a 2-year build against the odds

Unintentionally, the WWE has created the ultimate underdog story to someone who is booked like a superhero.

And if he doesn't win over the fans... they'll probably implement a backup plan, like last year - so Reigns winning the title at 'Mania will largely be dependant on fan reactions, making his fight for the title more genuine and less scripted than any other championship chase in recent history.
 
#33 ·
Struggle to see the comparison of real life Reigns battle as an underdog with the crowd because there is no effort to makes changes to his character or his direction, see the difference between Reigns' 'real life' underdog battle is he can CHOOSE to make use of his unique position (of Vince all supportive and forceful with his character's direction) yet Real Life Reigns needs to do what The Rock, Stone Cold, HHH and many more did and add his OWN input to his character.
If Reigns was that concerned of his characters struggle he would sit down with Vince & Creative and say 'hey, here's my idea. This is what MY character should change to.' and put an end to Vince's never-ending battle with the fans because thats whose battle it is in real life - Vince's not Reigns. It becomes Reigns when he takes creative control of his character but until that day the only real life crowd battle is Vince's through Reigns.
 
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