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Steve Austin Show: Raven Is Disgusted by The Lack of Psychology in Wrestling

24K views 181 replies 111 participants last post by  CptHowdy187 
#1 · (Edited)
http://www.podcastone.com/pg/jsp/program/episode.jsp?programID=542&pid=556321

On today's episode of the Steve Austin Show, Raven stops by to tell some stories about the old days, storytelling, and ring psychology. He goes on a long, but valid rant about how wrestling lacks emotion because the indy style guys are more concerned about getting their high spots in. I was listening to this at work today to pass time, but didn't think it would end up being one of my favorite episodes. Everything he says is spot on. The interview starts at the 15 minute, 20 second mark. Cliffnotes are below.



  • Wrestlers are too concerned with the AMOUNT of moves instead of making the most out of their moves. "You only need 5 good moves." Raven goes on to cite "sitting in the corner" as one of his moves.
  • You don't get time to emotionally invest in what's going on in the ring because wrestlers today just hop from sequence to sequence.
  • An irish whip reversal used to be a high spot. Now it's overused and done just for the sake of adding something to the match.
  • Chris Benoit was one of the earliest offenders of rushing spots with his chops. Luckily for him, no one else did it in such an intense manner, so he got away with it. Raven would have liked to sell the individual chops for awhile, instead of taking multiple in one sequence.
  • Wrestlers need to stop being afraid of negative crowd reactions and give them time to soak in their moves and taunts. If you knock someone down, make the crowd acknowledge that you knocked them down. Make every move feel important.
  • He talked about an indy wrestler who did a flying hurricanrana off a steel cage back in the day, and the small amount of people who saw it, to emphasize taking risks like that isn't worth the small reward. He also scoffed and said "Of course that wasn't the finish."
  • He says the guys who flip around and do spectacular moves are the dressing of the card, but not the main event, because they can't tell a story. The storytellers sell tickets.

That's just a little to get you started. The whole show is a great listen. I agreed with pretty much everything he said in regards to psychology. It should be alarming that Sasha vs. Bayley, a women's feud in developmental, is generally viewed as the greatest feud of the year. That's not to take away from either woman, but look at the talent on the roster. There's no excuse why at least 10 different guys should be able to tell an equally good story. As much as I love Sasha, she only had two really strong segments with Bayley to make people catch feelings. The rest of the story was told from their past by the announcers, epic video packages, and the matches themselves. It just goes to show the power of in ring storytelling, which we don't see at all on the main roster aside from the rare occasions like Reigns vs. Lesnar and Reigns vs. Bryan. We are almost always asking ourselves "Why are these two fighting?", and seeing a bunch of pointless, spot filled, finisher spammed matches that cannot fill the gap of a good story.

I recommend everyone listen to this podcast. I'll put up part 2 when it goes up on the Unleashed page this Thursday.
 
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#22 ·
-Wrestlers are too concerned with the AMOUNT of moves instead of making the most out of their moves. "You only need 5 good moves." Raven goes on to cite "sitting in the corner" as one of his moves.
-You don't get time to emotionally invest in what's going on in the ring because wrestlers today just hop from sequence to sequence.



I've been saying this for months now. WWE is just "MOVEZ". Forget selling, developing psychology, acting well and using physical motion to act out a compelling story, we just have to get more MOVEZ in. Remember the Rumble triple threat when Rollins dove off the turnbuckle onto Lesnar? That's a match ender anywhere else. Of course, it didn't end that match. Not to mention, why did Rollins almost kill himself to take out Brock? Did he hate Brock and want to inflict pain? Is it the only way he could take out someone stronger and bigger than him? Of course not, its because MOVEZ! The script said "Brock gets taken out in table spot by Seth", so that's what happened. No rhyme or reason, and it took away from the match.

Watch guys like Tanahashi, Okada, Nakamura, AJ and friends in New Japan. See how everything they do connects to the overall story. There's a method to what they're doing and helps move the plot along. In short, there's LOGIC. And this is a big reason why New Japan is so far ahead of WWE in terms of in ring work right now. I'd be embarrassed if I were WWE.
 
#7 ·
The thing is, I've seen great matches put together with just a few basic moves and that's it. Now, it just seems like everyone wants to hit their big spots and that's it.

Take Ziggler for example. I like Ziggler a lot. Has to hit the DDT. Has to hit the Fameasser. Has to hit the Superkick. He has to get those spots in every match. But now it's gotten to the point where he's established he never beats anyone with those moves. They're just "Ziggler" moves. Or Luke Harper. He hits the sickest Powerbomb in the business. But he never beats anyone with it. Eventually you're just watering down the match because these moves just becomes "kickout spots."

One of the few guys that I think still follows this is Ambrose. Doesn't have a bunch of signature moves but instead incorporates a lot of little moves in between. Or Bryan. Yeah, he doesn't do all the moves he did on the Indies. But that's fine. He works in just the right number of kicks, strikes, and submissions. That's what I like to see more of.
 
#12 · (Edited)
Dude, I can't tell you how many times "Ziggler's DDT" popped into my head while listening to this. Austin got on him a few months ago for his match with Neville, where he dropped Neville CLEAN on his head, looked like he killed him, but that wasn't the finish. Here are the notes for that: http://www.wrestlingforum.com/gener...s-cenas-springboard-stunner.html#post47821898

I also agree about moves being watered down. I'm tired of seeing moves that were once considered devastating be frivolously used in transition. How many other Shawn Michaels fans cringe everytime we see the Superkick be used (horribly) by over half of the roster? @Showstopper. Does anyone else get as pissed off as I do when Seth's beautiful Frog Splash gets no sold? It shits on the legacy of Guerrero and Michaels. I can't stand it.
 
#28 ·
Completely agree with him. This is why when people try to claim today's generation of wrestlers have better in-ring talent than the Attitude Era or other periods, I think those posters have no idea what the hell they're talking about. Most of the roster today is shit because they lack the fundamentals. Being athletic means fuck all if you don't know how to tell a story in the ring or lack psychology. All it takes to impress internet fans today is for a wrestler to be agile, and to do a lot of moves. As if that means anything.

Look at CM Punk. Was he athletic? Fuck no. He was an uncoordinated and sloppy wrestler. The difference is his fundamentals were strong enough to make up for that. He knew how to sell, engage the audience, and more importantly, pace the match with the right moves. Same with Bryan. How many moves does Bryan actually do? Very little. Most of his matches revolve around his kicks, but when it comes to big matches, he knew how to tell a story. Look at his match with Reigns. Both of them did a fantastic job, and it was because both of them focused on telling the story of their feud in that match.

Guys like Ziggler, Owens, Rollins, Cesaro, don't understand this shit. It's just the same match, again, and again, and again. Watch one match, you may as well have watched them all.
 
#30 · (Edited)
I think Owens match with Ryback at NOC is the perfect example that the guy has the fundamentals. The problem is when he has those spotty matches (like the ones he had against Cena, those matches were overrated as fuck). There is a match between Cesaro & Kofi in a random Main Event from 2013 that was excellent, Cesaro had great psychology in that match. They are capable of having psychology, but WWE wants their matches to be shitty and "OMFG MOVEZ, GUYZ DIZ IZ AZZOM, SPOTCITYBITCH"
 
#21 ·
because it's great to them and not all people like the same thing? It's not like they're wrong to enjoy them.

Anyways, Raven is on point, as always.
 
#103 · (Edited)
Another thing I want to add is wrestlers having the same exact "great" match multiple times. I'm a big Owens fan, that's no secret, but you are lying to yourself if you aren't acknowledging that he and Cena had the same match 3 times in a row. There was no effort to change anything besides the finish. The was no story being told, just the use of the same spots. Rollins and Cena did the same thing at Summerslam and NOC. The first time it was like "Ok cool, Seth brought out his whole arsenal." The second time, it felt like I was watching a replay of SS in a different venue. This has GOT to stop.

Something that really stood out to me in Sasha vs. Bayley 2 is how they made an extra effort to tell a continuation of the Brooklyn story by taking spots used there and tweaking them. For example: in Brooklyn, Sasha got her finisher reversed by Bayley by pushing herself too far back. This time, she rolled through and kept the hold on because she expected the reversal. Another one was the hurricanrana spot. Sasha remembered she landed on her head last time, and decided to use more backwards momentum to land on her ass. It would've been better if she landed on her feet like Seth, but the message was still sent. Adjustments were made. None of the guys on the main roster are making an effort to do this.
 
#109 · (Edited)
Another thing I want to add is wrestlers having the same exact "great" match multiple times. I'm a big Owens fan, that's no secret, but you are lying to yourself if you aren't acknowledging that he and Cena had the same match 3 times in a row. There was no effort to change anything besides the finish. The was no story being told, just the use of the same spots. Rollins and Cena did the same thing at Summerslam and NOC. The first time it was like "Ok cool, Seth brought out his whole arsenal." The second time, it felt like I was watching a replay of SS in a different venue. This has GOT to stop.

Something that really stood out to me in Sasha vs. Bayley 2 is how they made an extra effort to tell a continuation of the Brooklyn story by taking spots used there and tweaking them. For example:im Brooklyn, Sasha got her finisher reversed by Bayley by pushing herself too far back. This time, she rolled through and kept the hold on because she expected the reversal. Another one was the hurricanrana spot. Sasha remembered she landed on her head last time, and decided to use more backwards momentum to land on her ass. It would've been better if she landed on her feet like Seth, but the message was still sent. Adjustments were made. None of the guys on the main roster are making an effort to do this.
Spot on with that. Cena just happens to be involved in both instances too :cena. I didn't like either final match of the series because of this. They really were the same matches with different finishes. Just throwing out moves for the sake of doing so.

Did you read my review of Sasha vs Baley? I felt the same way :D. I loved how it truly felt like a part 2. So much that I'd tell someone to go watch their Brooklyn match first to get the most out of the Ironman match. They didn't just reuse spots, they reused and revised them to tell even more of a story.
 
#35 · (Edited)
Raven makes some good points, but he forgets that this is the modern day WWE style. These guys are BROKEN DOWN and FORCED to forget everything they learned in the Indys once they come to NXT, or are in the training phase before they go on NXT TV and are forced the WWE style on them. That's why it takes some of them so long to make the jump to the main roster. I don't get invested emotionally in any of the current WWE guys' matches and haven't in a really long time. :shrug This is why I laugh whenever I read a fan today markout at the supposed psychology we just saw in some WWE match. There's actually very little and the majority of the matches make no sense and have ZERO selling whatsoever (we all know who is the main culprit with that :cena4)
@Legit BOSS YES. The overuse of the superkick is absolutely ridiculous at this point. Thank the Young Bucks for that. fpalm
 
#40 ·
@Legit BOSS YES. The overuse of the superkick is absolutely ridiculous at this point. Thank the Young Bucks for that. fpalm
I fucking hate those guys. Every match of theirs is the same damn thing. I liked them at first (mid2013-early2014), but when you watch them for that long, you realize they are shit. That is just my opinion, obviously, if anybody here likes them, fine. I just don't get the hype for the "ZUPERKIK PPPAAARRRTTTTYYY"
 
#118 ·
Vince Russo has been the truth for some time now. Not just him though, but a good chunk of the old timers have been saying this and we get people on here calling them "bitter" lol.

Raven is on point throughout this entire thing though. In particular when he mentioned how Elix Skipper did possibly the greatest move ever:



Except that almost nobody was watching, that most don't remember the move, and that he pretty much risked his life doing this type of spot, insane spot but he came out of it with very little. Raven goes on to say that if the guy just worked on developing a character, talking on the mic, etc. he could've been a lot more famous then he actually was.
 
#134 · (Edited)
i heavily blame the roh generation BUT Paul Heyman said that he wanted to make ECW more like ROH if it stayed in business. which in hindsight made me glad ECW went out of business lol. "ROH style" has a place in wrestling but remember Sable will always be a bigger star than Cheerleader Melissa, Sara Del Rey and Lufisto even Molly Holly & Victoria and Ultimate Warrior and Hulk Hogan will Always be bigger stars than Steve Corino, Deal Malenko, Daniel Bryan and CM Punk
 
#126 ·
Look at The Godfather that guy couldn't work like at all but he was crazy over in 1999 by dressing like a pimp and bringing some girls out. Plus he developed some catch phrases that caught on. Acts like that keep the crowd loud all the way through the show. Notice how the audiences today are usual dead by the time the main event comes on because they've been bored stiffless for 2 and half hours with random heatless midcard and tag team matches.
 
#25 ·
Commercials during matches are definitely a serious issue. There are upwards of 3 commercial breaks in these 20 minute matches. The whole "heel straps on a rest hold, babyface rallies for a comeback" sequences are almost scrapped completely as a result. Ironically, Nikki Bella is the only one who (visibly) does this consistently.
 
#56 ·
Exactly, a lot of the roster today are concerned with doing their fancy ass frofro moves, while showing ZERO selling.
The matches are so predictable, it's almost like watching a rerun of an old sitcom, you know which spots are leading to a commercial cut, you can feel the fact that it's too scripted by the producers backstage move for move with no improvision whatsoever

That's why I find it funny that some consider today's in ring work superior to old styles of wrestling, when it's obvious they're just doing gymnastics
 
#122 ·
I feel this way about Owens and Cesaro matches... they do a billion devastating moves and have a billion and one kickouts. There's no psychology and both are terrible at selling yet you guys consider them the best and cream over everything they do. Meanwhile guys like Miz and Wyatt who are fantastic psychologists are considered terrible workers. I've just learned to accept there's 2 distinctly different fan bases and 2 distinctly different styles of wrestling which is why I don't have a problem with skipping half of Raw and NXT.
 
#128 ·
if you listen to steve austins podcast regularly (JR's too but i think JR's philosophy is too old school) he and many of his guests discuss the lack of psychology in particular the lack of selling. one of austin's pet peeves is the lack of selling on the DDT. They also talk about too much too fast in wrestling.

Part of the blame does go to the current wrestlers but also the promotions encourage this style yet all the real stars discuss it. Guys like Austin & Raven are old men now but they arnt exactly Jim Cornette. Vince Russo has talked about lack of character and psychology now hes on the same side as guys like Austin, Raven, Jake Roberts, Ric Flair, The Kliq and many more on these podcasts.

its like everything, the good stuff gets diluted. Shawn was seen as a small guy jumping all over the place like jericho benoit and guerrero but they were all built motherfuckers and ,benoit aside, had great grasps on storytelling and characters when they main evented. now theyre all skinny pricks fliping around like a fish out of water
 
#132 ·
I don´t know why Raven criticizes Benoit´s workstyle/storytelling. Cause Benoit did exactly what Raven wants to see. His nickname was the Rabid Wolverine. So he fought exactly like a Rabid Wolverine. He made his style unique and recognizable. Wolverines kill much bigger prey and attack much bigger predators with a reckless, relentless, fearless aggression and that´s exactly what Benoit did and what made Benoit´s in-ring persona and style believable.

That his physical style and body shape were not sustainable naturally and that the physical consequences contributed to the tragic events that transpired later is a seperate issuse.
 
#9 ·
Raven brings up some very good points that's why Austin's podcast tells the truth without shying away from it. It's all about telling a story and actually developing the story from beginning to end, true about the irish whip reversal being more of an overused desperation move only to add something into the match.
 
#11 · (Edited)
And yet there will continue to be threads about limited move sets. Smh


Storytelling>MOVEZ

Although it's not 1975 anymore where a vertical suplex is a finisher, but it's also not the late 90s where midcarders would do brainbusters and piledrivers in the first minute of their 3 minute match.

I actually think there is some good physiology in a number of matches where body parts are worked over, but there are a number of guys who do not know how to sell a throughout a match and commentary doesn't really bring focus to when a guy is working over a someone over.


Edit:

This may sound strange, but I beleive there is actually a phycology to a spotfest no selling match. The Young Bucks for example have it down. Not always, because sometimes they have matches that I can't follow at all, but when they have the right team to wrestle they're great. I think it's there body language and facials that are able to tell a wacky jumbled up story, kind of like those 80s cartoons that didn't really make sense, but there were explosions and fighting so it was cool. It's really hard to explain really.
 
#41 ·
When I saw one of the first X Division matches in TNA in 2002 involving AJ Styles, Jerry Lynn and Lowki, they were move for move like the ultimate spot matches but I had never seen something so incredible. It was like a freakin marathon.
 
#18 ·
What about Raven?











He's fucking right, that's what. I wonder how or why any company hasn't hired him to help guys out backstage.
 
#38 ·
Raven is an absolute wrestling genius. Paul Heyman summed it up really well when he was on Jericho's podcast, saying that everything about Raven's character history should have made him an incredibly sympathetic babyface, but he managed to make everyone hate him. When it comes to psychology I don't pay attention to anyone more than Raven. So, he's right.

The commercial break issue is something I was just thinking about today actually. How are we supposed to care about the matches if they're always interrupted by commercials? Sure, have commercials, but on a three hour show that they've openly admitted they struggle to write enough material for, how difficult would it really be to cut some filler and work the commercials around the matches, instead of having dull segment after dull segment and then kill the momentum of the bits we're meant to get excited about? It makes no sense.
 
#49 ·
I enjoyed Kalisto vs Kevin Owens last monday night, it was short and to the point.
Cesaro delivers every single show he is in, I can tell you that.

The problem are the storylines, everyone is directionless, they don't know how to book matches anymore. A lot of these wrestlers can do very good psychology, but they are not allowed to do that, I think. WWE is so lifeless ATM.

If you want to watch a fucking character, watch Pentagon Jr on LU.
 
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