Wrestling Forum banner

The kicking out of finishers

7K views 59 replies 45 participants last post by  Eva MaRIHyse 
#1 · (Edited)
First of all I'd like to point out that I've had a huge problem with this for quite some time now.

Remember the days when it was a big deal when someone kicked out of a finisher? Remember when the Rock kicked out of the stunner and it was a surprise? Remember when HBK kicked out of the tombstone at WM25 and it was a surprise?

Well these days are long gone.

I'll use the Kevin Owens vs John Cena matche as an example to prove how illogical it really is. So Kevin Owens, a new WWE superstar kicks out of THREE AA's. The very same move which won John Cena many of his 15 World titles. Therefore, one of two things must have happened. Either John Cena and his finisher has got weaker, or Kevin Owens is much better than the likes of Edge, Orton, JBL, and all the other wrestlers who've been beat with one AA in the past. How is that possibly believable that in one of his first matches he is able to withstand so many finishers? It's simply not. Therefore, it doesn't put Owens over and it sure as hell doesn't put Cena over. It leaves you in a situation where finishers are becoming less and less of a big deal every single time this happens.

When it's executed properly I have absolutely no problem with it, but it never is anymore. The likes of the HBK vs Undertaker match at WM25 is an example where it worked. It added excitement to the match, it was surprising when it happened and at the same time it was believable due to the fact that it was two established superstars on the grandest stage of them all.

But these days at every single PPV superstars are kicking out of finishers and it just isn't exciting, it hurts both superstars and the matches IMO. The commentators don't even make that big a deal about it now. Lesnar kicked out of the tombstone at Summerslam and Michael Cole just said in his normal pitch and normal tone of voice "Lesnar just got the shoulder up". Of course that could also be down to how shit Michael Cole is as a commentator, but that's another thread for another time.

What's everyone's thoughts? Do you think wrestlers kicking out of finishers so often is logical?
 
See less See more
#12 ·
That's a GOOD aspect of it. You have to delineate the totem pole somehow and from a character standpoint, Owens should be kicking out of AA's more and Rusev should be biting the dust at one.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mr. WrestleMania
#3 · (Edited)
It's a difficult thing to judge.

On one hand, it does make the move, and the opponents beaten by it in the past, look weaker.

On the other hand, wrestling needs to continue to evolve in order to keep things moving along. If matches now were the same as they were in the 80s, things would be a lot different.

I'm fine with finishers being kicked out of as long as it doesn't hurt the story being told. I wish some matches would end with random moves. I wouldn't mind two dudes beating the shit out of each other for 30 minutes, kicking out of each other's finishers, only for the match to end in a bridging suplex or something because the loser was too exhausted to kick out.

I think that the bigger problem is predictability. We know that matches will end one of 3 ways - Finisher, rollup or interference. There needs to be more creativity in match endings.
 
#6 · (Edited)
In the case of Cena, well, that's just realism.
I have no problem with kicking out of the People's Elbow either. What bothers me is things like kicking out of the Running Knee or Tombstone. That's just ruining realism.
 
#39 ·
People seem to forget that as far back as Wrestlemania 14 people were kicking out of the Tombstone. Kane kicked out of 2 damn-near-consecutive Tombstones and only just went down to the 3rd one.

On the grander point of finisher kick-outs... I know logically I should dislike them but I still find it kind of brilliant sometimes. Only sometimes, mind. If the match just devolves into nothing but hitting finishers and the other guy kicking out, then I have a problem. But that's more a problem with the match just breaking down rather than nay fundamental issue with the idea of people kicking out of finishers.

But I'll admit to kind of marking out for it. When you think "well that's it, this one's over" and then the guy gets a shoulder up at the last moment. It's kind of cool.
 
#7 ·
I agree with you completely. Back in the day, kicking out of a finishing move told a story of a wrestler who not only wouldn't give up, but he couldn't give up. Nowadays, kicking out of finishing moves is basically the norm unless you're a jobber (in which case, the constant kicking out makes gives less meaning to pin even jobbers with the moves).

I'll give you an example. Remember when The Rock kicked out of the Stone Cold Stunner at WrestleMania 17? It was a huge deal. It told the story that no matter what Austin did, The Rock refused to die and Austin resorted to desperate matters (i.e. Mr McMahon). You just don't see that anymore.
 
#59 ·
Yeah, it has really killed it.

I mean look how cool it was seeing Emma just do a general "hard hit", and pinned off of it. I mean that feels so more real, than a "usual" finish.


It seems like everyone on roster does it. But Cena is the worst, he won't let anyone pin him. His match vs. Cesaro is the format that I think everyone uses for "very equal" feuds. Both hit each other with everything, so its "whoever does their biggest hit, off top turnbuckle".
 
#11 ·
We are in the era of "Over powered entities".

It's like the average wrestler is from the Ultimate Warrior's dimension.

And it annoys the fuck outta me.

What we get with the finisher spamming are matches that all feel and look the same way. End the same way. It's bullshit. Repetitive. Fuck it.

Look back to the great matches of the early to mid 90s. The ending was a surprise or a twist or the result of something more creative than finisher spamming.

Of course, we all know that Creative is no longer creative.
 
#13 ·
What's even more ridiculous is when mid card geeks who get 6 minutes for a match on Raw (instead of 2) start doing it. As bad as it is for Cena and friends to spam 6 finishers every fucking match, when it starts happening in matches like Miz vs Ziggler, then things have truly gone to hell.


By the way, I still enjoy Ziggler and hope the best for him, but with his positioning now...let's face it, he's a mid card geek. Pairing him with Lana for absolutely zero chemistry has done him no favors.
 
#16 ·
You are right. 9 out of 10 times a finisher should finish a match. Instead of building up to finishers they use finishers and near falls to get cheap pops. Instead of finisher spams and near falls they should do finisher counters. You build up towards a finish you don't spam finishes. It is sometimes acceptable to spam finishers if they are trying to make someone look unstoppable.
 
#18 ·
Made the match MUCH more exciting when the finisher is made to look deadly. One of the MANY thing LU is doing better than WWE - I was shocked when Puma & Muertes kicked out of their respective finishers at Ultima Lucha.
 
#20 ·
One of the problems of Cena matches is that when he does the Five Knuckle Shuffle, he starts with the never-ending AA attempts before get knocked by the opponent.

The opponent keeps on avoiding it with impressive move counters until he hits the first AA and tried to pin him, the opponent kicks out and then Cena goes for the STF and the opponent reaches for the ropes. Then, Cena tries something new but eventually, goes for another AA attempt for 324797 times before he connects.

It's quite annoying. The thing that should be better in his matches is find a new finisher without trying to Spam it for a 100 times. That's why it seems that the opponent is carrying the match because half-way, Cena is just attempting the AA until he connects with it.
 
#21 ·
To be fair, this isn't everybody. This is John Cena bullshit. And I imagine the roster is pretty pissed about the way he did this. You're suddenly going to have a bunch of TV matches that have you and your opponent kicking out of each others finishers, that Cena wins, of course. Then the mockery Cena/Owens made of finishers. It made everybody look like idiots, and it was like a giant sign saying "LOOK HOW FAKE THIS BULLSHIT IS!!!"

Finisher kickouts should be reserved for PPVs, and not even every PPV. Maybe on the occasional RAW if there's a Cena/Punk level match or something.

Someone has to walk up to Cena backstage and say "We're not doing this. If you want to no-sell the business you're in, do it with someone else. Or I will break your nose."
 
#23 ·
Its way to overdone, in a big match fine it adds some suspense, but in every single even remotely big match. Makes guys like Rusev, Batista, Edge, HHH, Jericho, etc. look like jabroni's when KO is kicking out of three of them, one of which is off the second rope. The worst for me is the fact that the F5 always has to be hit multiple times. The Undertaker kicked out of three of them, Reigns kicked out of a couple, Cena did, HHH did. Finishers mean nothing thesedays.
 
#25 ·
There's nothing wrong with kicking out of finishers, the problem is when they do it every match, sometimes even doing it as much as 2-3 times , thats when finishers look weak as hell. I do believe that 1 finisher should be enough in most cases but big world title matches should have at most 1 kick out of a finisher. It gets annoying and it feels ridiculous when a guy kicks out of 2 or 3 finishers , it becomes meaningless.
 
#27 ·
The story, at least that was being told throughout the whole Cena Open Challenge was that he was weaker. The AA couldn't simply put people away like flicking off a light anymore. Whether due to age or having to endure big match after big match, and/or opponents rising to his level, it was getting tougher for Cena to put people away.

Fans have long derided the move because it didn't look powerful enough. Well, now it isn't:cena

And then, how does including more finisher kickouts make matches more predictable? I don't really get that. If someone's finish puts people away ~100% of the time, then you know the match is over as soon as it goes off. BUT, if a finish only has a ~50% chance of ending the match, you either hope for or dread the kickout, but don't really know either way until it happens, nor do you know exactly who will win even if they do kickout of it.

Personally, I'd much rather see moves that aren't head/high shoulder bumps be less successful on the first execution - it makes a helluva lot more sense that it's at least as much about what the opponent has sustained up to that point, as it is about hitting some magical super move.

Of course, we did see a 'normal' move win a match when Rusev and Cesaro ended up as the final two in the triple threat match about a month ago. Rusev hit his bicycle-super kick when Cesaro tried coming off the top rope and pinned him straight afterwards. But then, there was plenty of bitching to be had after that as well :quimby
 
#28 ·
The limited move sets these wrestlers today have is different from back in the day.In todays wrestling a finisher will probably be used 2 or 3 times because said wrestler has used every move he has in said match.So in order to have a 15 or 20 minute match you'll see this happen.
 
#30 ·
I agree with the person who said you need more creative endings to balance out the lack of impact that a finisher has. As of now superstars are still dependent on winning with finishers and it takes 3-4 finishers to win a big match. If you changed it up and had them win with a piledriver (yeah I know they're banned) it tells a better story.
 
#31 · (Edited)
I don't mind it because it's usually done to show somebody won't go down so easily. It's good for telling the story of this match is so important this person is digging deeper than usual to win.

I think the real problem is not enough moves can end a match besides a finisher or suprise roll up. Signature moves or even a crazy counter should end the most TV matches imo, especially if you're wrestling someone underneath you. That way it's actually surprising if a finisher gets kicked out of
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top