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Vince Russo: Why The Casual Fans Have Stopped Watching Wrestling

35K views 329 replies 124 participants last post by  panzowf 
#1 ·
Vince Russo recently put out a 3 part series on his website detailing why he thinks the mainstream audience no longer cares about WWE. I agree with pretty much everything and expect most of the discussion to stem from part one. Try not to harbor on DA LOOK to much and see the overall picture.

Part 1: No Larger Than Life Superstars: http://www.pyroandballyhoo.com/wres...estling-fans-stopped-watching-wrestling-part/

When a casual wrestling fan turns on a wrestling show, they expect to see actual WRESTLERS. And, to the masses, the definition of a WRESTLER is much different from that of the “die-hard” fan, or “core” wrestling audience. You see, to a casual fan, the draw of a wrestler has little to actually do with the way he “wrestles”. To us, a wrestling match is a wrestling match. Yes, some are better than others, and some are worse, but—we’re not tuning in for the “match” per say. If that were the case then we’d be tuning in every week because we would indeed be “wrestling” fans.

When it comes to casual wrestling fans, we like the wrestlers who are “larger than life”. The guys with the big frames, or impressive physiques that we all wish we had, but don’t, so we live vicariously through them. Now there are exceptions to that rule, for instance take a Shawn Michaels and Bret Hart, but those guys have very distinctive characters which made up for their “lack of” physical presence. Casual wrestling fans are drawn to the wrestlers that we grew up watching, maybe the business was a bit more selective back then who knows, but whatever the case—all those guys just LOOKED like wrestlers. They didn’t look like you and me, regular guys, they looked “different”, “special”, they just stood out in the crowd. There was no one like a “Rowdy” Roddy Piper, or a King Kong Bundy, Randy Savage, Hulk Hogan, Mick Foley, the “Rock” or, of course “Stone Cold”. No one looked like someone you would run into on the street. And, if they did, then they would be road kill much like your Barry Horowitz’s. In the mind of a casual fan, when you tune into a wrestling show—WRESTLERS need to look like WRESTLERS.

For whatever reason, I know of a few, that has changed over the years. For starters, the majority of the wrestlers of today are not as “jacked-up” as years passed, largely due to the decrease in steroids over the years. You read how in the past even though a wrestler was never “directly” told to go on the juice, it was implied that if they did . . . they would find themselves higher up on the card. And, let’s face it, many did it on their own accord because it was a “business decision” as they thought it would help their stock in the long run–regardless of what the consequences may be later on in life.

Today, with drug testing in place, the importance of being a physical specimen, has been replaced with the idea of being a “great worker”. One that can actually “wrestle”. Now, where that is a must to the “core” wrestling fan, it’s not as important to the “casual” fan. Again, remember, we don’t watch every week because we’re NOT necessarily fans of the wrestling. I’ve always said this when it comes to casual wrestling fans, when there is a guy on a wrestling show on TV that —regardles of his acrobatic performance in the ring—you actually BELIEVE YOU CAN TAKE—then you have a problem on your hands.

Look at current history. The guys that the “core” wrestling fans see as over are guys like; CM Punk, Daniel Bryan , Seth Rollins and Dean Ambrose. Now again, even though the audiences who pay to see them are reacting to them, that doesn’t mean that the world is, or even the “casual” wrestling fan. All great wrestlers, and tremendous talents in their own right, but to casual wrestling fans these guys just look like “regular guys” when you stand them up next to a Brock Lesnar, or a John Cena, or a Roman Reigns even. Now granted, the WWE brain trust haven’t exactly stepped up to the plate in supplying these guys with defined characters that could help make up for some of their lack off physical prowess, but still, at the end of the day if I ran into any one of them on the street—they wouldn’t scare me. There is nothing “different”, or “unique” about them—they just look like ordinary guys (with the exception of Daniel Bryan, of course). That’s why the WWE never really pushed CM Punk, and were hesitant to push Bryan Daniel, not because of their wrestling ability, but because these guys may not necessarily appeal to the MASSES. And, that’s just fact, not opinion. Go back and look at your numbers when these guys were on top. No question that both Rollins and Ambrose are the two best “workers” on the WWE roster right now, NO DOUBT, but, when it comes to business . . . where are they getting the WWE? Look at the numbers . . . the casual fans are not watching.

The majority of the people reading this post are going to kill me with their comments, and you know why? The Internet Wrestling Community is made up of DIE-HARD wrestling fans! Casual wrestling fans don’t go to sites like this, they don’t even know that they exist. To them, its real simple—WRESTLERS NEED TO LOOK LIKE WRESTLERS! They need to look different, stand-out, be unique and posses a LARGER THEN LIFE presence. That’s what we grew up on, that’s what we want! It’s just part of the wrestling business, and always has been. Without even knowing the card, go look at the WrestleMania I roster. Just look at what those guys looked like PHYSICALLY! Hogan, Piper, Bundy, Orndorf, JYD, Big John Studd, Andre the Giant (OK, an exception to the rule), Jimmy Snuka, Iron Shiek, Nikolai Volkoff, ALL THESE GUYS LOOKED LIKE WRESTLERS!!! Can you say the same about today’s crop? Now, face it, much of that also has to do with lack of character development, and I’ll get into that tomorrow, but out of all those guys listed—do you think you could actually take one of them? They all just had a “presence”, and the physical aspect played a huge part. Casual fans want super heroes—we always have . . . we always will.

But, at some point, the wrestling business actually started listening to the internet fans. Somewhere along the line “work rate” became more important than “physical presence”. And, again, when the vast majority of the casual fans could give two HURRICANRANAS about how good a wrestling match is, or a wrestling match at all—you’ve lost them. And, the WWE continues to go down that road. Just watching NXT last week I saw first hand how they are getting further and further away from what the MASSES want. Yeah, I saw some UNBELIVABLE wrestlers on that show, BUT—are they going to appeal to the masses—or, do they just look like regular guys?

I guess all that is a part of STAR POWER, and unfortunately, physical appearance has something to do with that in the majority of the cases.
Part 2: No Character Development: http://www.pyroandballyhoo.com/wrestling/mass-exodus-casual-wrestling-fans-stopped-watching-part-ii/

As part two of this series continues, we take a much closer look at what may very well be at the crux of the WWE’s problem when it comes to turning away the mass audience from their product—the overall lack of character development. When you look up and down the current WWE roster, which wrestlers actually have a personality, or character, that the casual wrestling fan could invest in, thus committing them to actually care about that performer. In other words, who has the WWE built “character wise” that the casual fan can buy into.

Wrestling has created such a rich catalogue of characters throughout the years, tracing all the way back to the beginning with over the top personalities such as “Gorgeous George” and the barefooted Antonino Rocca. Wrestling was built on characters that were larger than life. The backbone of wrestling was structured through the idea of pulling on the emotions of its viewers. Give them reason to either boo, or cheer somebody. That type of emotion isn’t built through a wrestling match, it’s built through the wrestlers IN the wrestling match.

For decades it’s been all about the personalities. From my grandfather through my own kids. You were drawn to a particular wrestler because you had feelings towards him/her, one way, or another. And, how were those feelings created? They were created by forming a personality for that particular star, a personality that was different from everybody else. When Jake Roberts showed up on your television every week—you KNEW who he was. Same goes for Piper, Bret Hart, HBK, Hogan, and on, and on, and on. These characters were CLEARLY defined, through the way they dressed, talked, interacted with others, WRESTLED, and perhaps more importantly the way that they carried themselves when in that superstar persona. But, make no mistake s about it, each wrestler couldn’t have created that persona on their own. They needed the tools from those in creative at the time. They needed to be put into positions where their characters would come across with overwhelming force! Austin drove a beer truck into the arena for a reason, Mick Foley abducted Vince McMahon for a reason, “The Rock” looked at Faarooq a certain way for a reason. There were a series of Val Venus vignettes before you ever saw him . . . for a reason. Goldust recited movie quotes for a reason, DX drove a rocket launcher to WCW’s backdoor for a reason. In all cases that reason was to BUILD THEIR CHARACTERS. To make these individuals unique, to make them stand out, to make YOU care about them.

Somehow, once the Attitude Era passed on, the WWE lost this fine art. They forgot how to create stars and build wrestlers. They rely now more on the in-ring product, the part of the show that the casual wrestling fans care the least about. They started listening to the internet. They let the dirt sheets begin to determine what their product needed to be based on what THEY wanted. The only problem with that is the FACT that they are the very small minority when it comes to who is actually watching wrestling—or, used to watch wrestling, any way. Casual wrestling fans–in general–doen’t even know the Internet Wrestling Community exits.

What is a pre-tape today? The “Authority” making a match in their office? A hot chick with a mic interviewing Roman Reigns? Where are the vignettes that were built for weeks, and weeks and weeks? Remember Double J’s gold tooth sparking straight from Music City months before you ever saw him. Now, you have “New Day” signing with a choir for 2 weeks. OK. And, that does what for who? Because these guys are part of a church choir I can’t wait to see them on RAW—even though I’ve already seen them and they weren’t gospel singers prior? Ouy Vey.

Here’s a perfect example. Let’s look at the top three workers in the WWE right now. Dolph Ziggler, Dean Ambrose and Seth Rollins. All OUTSTANDING wrestlers, nobody can deny that, but—when you look at their characters—who are they? Why should casual wrestling fans really care about them?

DOLPH ZIGGLER–Who is he? We know he’s a great wrestler, and looks good, but beyond that, why is he different from everybody else. What storyline does he currently have that is building a case for his character? What is drawing me to this guy? To the casual fan it’s not his work rate because the casual fan is not a WRESTLING FAN.

SETH ROLLINS–Another great worker. OK, who is he? “Mr. Money in the Bank” because he won a briefcase in a match? “The Future of Professional Wrestling” because Triple H said so? Where is his story? Who is he? Why should I care? This is where the backstage element is drastically missing in wrestling today. The backstage was used to build characters and stories. For cryin’ out loud, you knew who even the MEAN STREET POSSE were!!!

DEAN AMBROSE–Great wrestler. Packs a mean slime exploding briefcase. Keep him away from mustard and ketchup dispensers. He’s a ‘lunatic” and “crazy” because he sticks out his tongue a lot. Are you serious? Where’s his interaction with other wrestlers outside of the wrestling ring? Why do him and Bray Wyatt only cross paths in the arena? They have to see each other in then back . . . don’t they.

And, now more than ever wrestlers like the three just mentioned, desperately need to be crafted, created and defined, because the WWE is fast tracking them to main event status, when based on the package we’re seeing they should be somewhere around mid-card level. Come on, are you going to put Brock Lesnar in the same ring with a Dean Ambrose and have people actually believe that Ambrose could beat him? Same with Rollins and Cena. On his best day Rollins could never beat Cena. Part of that is not only physical, but part of it is that Lesnar and Cena are stars due to them having CHARACTERS. We KNOW who they are when we see them. We either root, or cheer, based on the characters that have been created for them. The only problem in both the WWE and TNA right now is for every one character that you care about, there are 10 that you don’t. Who is Cesaro? Who is Austin Aries? Who is Jack Swagger? I know who Kurt Angle is.

If you don’t have compelling characters, the casual wrestling fans WILL NOT WATCH YOUR PRODUCT. It doesn’t matter HOW GOOD the wrestling match is. The casual wrestling fan doesn’t remember Savage/Steamboat WM III like the hard-core wrestling fans do, they remember the “Macho King”, Damien gnawing on the Macho Man’s arm, and the conflict that was Hulk, Savage and Miss Elizabeth. That’s what they remember. All stories built around their unique characters. No different than any other television show that the casual TV viewer watches. They watched Seinfeld for Kramer, George and Newman, they watch “South Park” to see what Cartman’s going to say this week. They watched “Jersey Shore” in droves to see what kind of trouble those Chuckleheads were going to get themselves into this week. And, even those characters were built. We knew more about “The Situation” then we do Seth Rollins—trust me.

Until the wrestling business re-visits it’s roots, and goes back to square one, they are never going to truly understand what brought them to the dance in the first place. Somewhere along the lines . . . they’ve forgotten. Think about this–looking at the merch sales from the Attitude Era compared to today, one would have to think that even with rising prices and internet sales, the WWE is nowhere close to selling t-shirts and toys (units) as it was back then. Compared to “Austin 3:16″ tees, how many “Lunatic Fringe” ones are you seeing? My point—sales/viewers are down across the board because your casual wrestling fan DOES NOT BUY INTO WRESTLING MATCHES! They buy into people. They buy into personalities. They buy into CHARACTERS.

Man, it’s really not that hard to understand.

Part 3: No Storylines: http://www.pyroandballyhoo.com/wres...ual-wrestling-fans-stopped-watching-part-iii/

Television shows are built on two things—characters and storyline. In fact, it’s impossible to have a successful television show even if you have one . . . without the other. Popular shows in today’s culture such as Breaking Bad, The Walking Dead and Sons of Anarchy, all thrive on the combination of characters and story. Even reality shows depend on that one-two punch to deliver healthy ratings every week. Last week, in part two of this series we covered why the lack of characters in wrestling are forcing the masses away from the product. Tonight, we will look at how non-existent storylines will continue to keep them away once they’ve already hit the highway.

Yes, I have to talk about the Attitude Era, because that’s where my WWE experience comes from. When Ed Ferrara and myself wrote TV, it was real simple—build to the next pay-per-view by using every segment, of every show, to get your characters and the STORIES they were involved in OVER. Everybody had a story, regardless of how high, or low you were on the card. Go back and watch some of the shows from that era on the WWE Network, you will NEVER find one, single, cold match on any of those episodes. Every match meant something and had meaning, all leading to the blow-off at the pay-per-view.

Now, in order to prove my point, let me dissect tonight’s episode of RAW as it relates to story, and by STORY I mean some kind of personal issue between the combatants—not them wrestling because they’ve wrestled prior. That does not consist of a story.

Rollins vs. Cena—STORY—Rollins has heat with John Cena because Cena was responsible for the exit of “The Authority”. I think it’s fair to say, that story is weak . . . at best.

Fandango vs. Jack Swagger-–STORY—NONE

Adam Rose vs. R-Truth—STORY—NONE—If the WWE wants to say that the story is Rose and Peter Cottontail, I’ll give that to them because they’re going to need it.

Big Show vs. Roman Reigns—STORY—NONE

Brie vs. Natalya—STORY—NONE

Los Matadores/El Torito vs. Goldust/Stardust—STORY—NONE

Luke Harper vs. Jack Swagger—STORY—NONE

Rusev/Ryback—STORY—NONE

Six Diva Tag Match—STORY—NONE

Miz vs. Jay Uso—STORY—Jay’s brother Jimmy is mad at the Miz for trying to set his wife Naomi up with an agent—weak at best.

Bray Wyatt vs. Dean Ambrose—STORY—There was a hologram at the beginning, then something about Dean’s father being in prison, then eventually . . . NOTHING.

When you look at that over the course of one three-hour show—isn’t that mind-boggling?

Again, we are talking about the MASS AUDIENCE here. Not the die-hard wrestling fans, but television viewers who turn into episodic television shows because they get hooked on the characters and STORIES. How are you supposed to get hooked on the stories in professional wrestling if they are NON-EXISTENT? Look at tonight’s show—everything you need to know is RIGHT THERE. What hooked the audience? What did they miss if they weren’t able to watch the show? What is the cliff hanger that is bringing them back next week? NOTHING IS THERE. Just a wrestling show with cold match, after cold match, with the majority of them meaning NOTHING.

At this rate, and by putting out this type of product, the WWE will NEVER win back the MILLIONS of viewers that they’ve managed to lose since the Attitude Era. Those television viewers are LONG GONE, and it’s nobody’s fault outside of the person who’s writing the show these days.

Who knows . . . maybe Vince McMahon needs a filter.
 
#2 ·
I actually disagree with much of what Russo is saying here honestly, through he brings up plenty of valid points, mainly regarding their being no storylines.
 
#3 ·
I'd say these are the biggest reasons as to why I fast-forward through almost all of Raw (at a slow enough speed to see what's happening haha).


I just don't care about the 8-10 matches they show every week (and also show on PPV's), and without great storylines or intriguing characters, there's really no reason for me to watch. I'll watch the opening segment and the final segment, and that's about it unless something surprising happens, like Lesnar coming out, The Rock, etc.

All of the stars today seem to be cut from the same mold, even though they aren't. They all seem to wrestle the same, act the same, have the same storylines, etc. I can fast-forward and still see who wins the match, say, "Oh, look, Adam Rose turned on the bunny.... Cool, I guess", and in 15-20 minutes have seen everything worth seeing on Raw. That's a problem.
 
#7 ·
Couldn't disagree more. Everyone I know that watched wrestling growing up and no longer watches comments on how small everyone is when I get them to watch a PPV with me. I even saw some random dude comment on Facebook recently about how he just saw wrestling on TV for the first time in a while and couldn't believe how small everyone is. The general consensus amongst the yesteryear fans that I know is, "How am I supposed to take this guy seriously? I wouldn't be scared of him in real life".

The fact of the matter is that most casuals either want to be impressed by someone's physical prowess, or, want the guy to be a "spot monkey" (eg, Jeff Hardy). He's another name that my friends bring up a lot... Saying how awesome those spots he did were. Very few casuals want to watch a "wrestling match". They want impressive, imposing stars, and/or they want big spots.
 
#6 ·
I agree with most of what Russo says, but how are you suppose to have a character to be invested in if the story lines are nonexistent? how are they suppose to be larger than life when the guy telling you what to say and do. How are you suppose to be unique when some senile fool controls your character
 
#8 ·
Part 1 is just nonsense. Almost everybody that watches wrestling prefers watching an enjoyable and entertaining match over a boring one no matter how imposing the competitors in it may be.

Also using Bret Hart as an example to prove the point that you can't get over because of in ring ability is hilarious. Is Russo really trying to get us to believe it was Bret's oozing charisma that got him where he was in the audience's eyes?

And by the same token using Cena as an example of an interesting and varied character... holy shit. That is what you call aiming for the nail and somehow taking your eye out by accident.

His point with needing more characterisation is accurate, but really, Cena is your example? Literally the very best example of the problem you are putting forward as a model for solution?

He's right about the lack of stories though.
 
#16 ·
Part 1 is just nonsense. Almost everybody that watches wrestling prefers watching an enjoyable and entertaining match over a boring one no matter how imposing the competitors in it may be.

Also using Bret Hart as an example to prove the point that you can't get over because of in ring ability is hilarious. Is Russo really trying to get us to believe it was Bret's oozing charisma that got him where he was in the audience's eyes?

No, you're wrong. Technical wrestling has never drawn, period. People don't tune in to see random wrestling matches, they tune in to see conflict. Matches are just tools to resolve the conflict. The awful ratings despite the oversaturation of wrestling over the last year should tell you that no one's interested in seeing wrestling for the sake of wrestling. They want stories, they want conflict, and they want characters.


However Russo has no room to talk because he wasn't writing rich and rivetin shit, his "stories" were whose sleeping with who or stable has beef with another stable with a swerve or run in mixed in.
Those shit stories that pulled 7.0 ratings.

On top of that he preaches the gospel on how wrestlers need to look like wrestlers but what makes him think they still care about big muscles? Batista didn't attract mainstream attention, Cena never attracted mainstream attention, Reigns sure as he'll isn't attracting mainstream attention.
Batista didn't attract mainstream attention? Did you miss 2005? Don't act like he was a flop because of this year and try to erase how over he was in his prime. Reigns isn't attracting mainstream attention?



The ratings say you're wrong. His hour increased by 300,000 and 550,000 people left during the main event.


Whose the guy hanging out with MLB players, getting coverage from RollingStone, The NFL Network, The Seattle Seahawks Parade, and appeared in USA Today? Daniel motherfucking Bryan

Whose is the guy that's shoot promo, shootpodcast and UFC involvement has attracted mainstream attention? CM Punk

Oh you want to talk outside media? Who's the guy that starred in a $770 million Marvel movie? Oh yeah, Batista, the guy you said has no mainstream appeal.


Next, he constantly talks about how the business focuses too much in workrate...Surely not WWE
Um, what have you been watching? I see pointless 15 minute matches every week, then I see those same people wrestle another pointless match at an irrelevant PPV.
 
#10 ·
Here's the thing...Russo talks a big game but he clearly doesn't get it. Sure he says there needs to be more storyline and character development...No Fucking Shit!

However Russo has no room to talk because he wasn't writing rich and rivetin shit, his "stories" were whose sleeping with who or stable has beef with another stable with a swerve or run in mixed in.

On top of that he preaches the gospel on how wrestlers need to look like wrestlers but what makes him think they still care about big muscles? Batista didn't attract mainstream attention, Cena never attracted mainstream attention, Reigns sure as he'll isn't attracting mainstream attention.

Whose the guy hanging out with MLB players, getting coverage from RollingStone, The NFL Network, The Seattle Seahawks Parade, and appeared in USA Today? Daniel motherfucking Bryan

Whose is the guy that's shoot promo, shootpodcast and UFC involvement has attracted mainstream attention? CM Punk

So fuck outta here with that BS

Next, he constantly talks about how the business focuses too much in workrate...Surely not WWE

They wouldn't have short matches, bunny segments, and celebrity guests if they cared that much.

The reason Casuals lost interest in pro Wrestling is simple...WWE's refusal to change with the damn times.
 
#12 ·
Here's the thing...Russo talks a big game but he clearly doesn't get it. Sure he says there needs to be more storyline and character development...No Fucking Shit!

However Russo has no room to talk because he wasn't writing rich and rivetin shit, his "stories" were whose sleeping with who or stable has beef with another stable with a swerve or run in mixed in.

On top of that he preaches the gospel on how wrestlers need to look like wrestlers but what makes him think they still care about big muscles? Batista didn't attract mainstream attention, Cena never attracted mainstream attention, Reigns sure as he'll isn't attracting mainstream attention.

Whose the guy hanging out with MLB players, getting coverage from RollingStone, The NFL Network, The Seattle Seahawks Parade, and appeared in USA Today? Daniel motherfucking Bryan

Whose is the guy that's shoot promo, shootpodcast and UFC involvement has attracted mainstream attention? CM Punk

So fuck outta here with that BS

Next, he constantly talks about how the business focuses too much in workrate...Surely not WWE

They wouldn't have short matches, bunny segments, and celebrity guests if they cared that much.

The reason Casuals lost interest in pro Wrestling is simple...WWE's refusal to change with the damn times.

And casuals love that type of stuff. It's always a "what's going to happen next?!?!" thing that keeps casuals watching. Once it becomes so obvious and predictable, people lose interest.

Russo gets a lot of hate for his swerves, but casuals love that stuff, man.... As do I :wink2:
 
#19 ·
I know you said to not harbor on it, but I'm a little bit confused on the first part.

Is Vince Russo suggesting that casual fans want people who look like superheroes, or people who do superhero things?

Because we've got people to cover that part.
Russo has covered the wrestlers with no personality already. We need wrestlers who look the part and carry themselves like stars. Good wrestling is an added bonus. Always has been, always will be. As long as you can conduct a decent match, charisma and star power trump everything.
 
#15 ·
There's just so much that needs to be done differently in my opinion (and apparently the opinion of most everyone on this forum). I don't think we can really point to any one thing and say, "oh, change that! Then everyone will want to watch wrestling again!"

I really can't think of a single aspect of WWE that doesn't need to be changed. I'm not even talking about changed like, "Hey, make it like you made it in 1998!", but at least tweaked in some serious ways. I personally don't care a whole lot about wrestling matches unless they're important and mean something (I don't care about ring psychology, "telling a story", etc.... If there's no reason for me to get emotionally invested, I don't care), UNLESS they're fun to watch (ie, acrobatic moves, power moves, big spots, etc.). I know everyone is different, but I don't think that the matches that WWE puts on right now appeal to ANYONE. They're almost always pointless and aren't fun to watch. Then WWE goes and makes Raw 3+ hours just to show more wrestling matches and less storyline/character development.


High quantity/low quality matches, boring storylines, too much stuff being banned (moves, blood, etc. that all add to matches and feuds), little to no character development, cookie-cutter guys who don't really stand out (with a few exceptions... and I don't necessarily mean "stand out = muscles"), over-production/too much "we're cool and on the Internet and have Twitter and trend a lot, like usss!!". It's just been the perfect storm of crappiness. No one thing will change it.
 
#17 ·
Also what Russo forgets about The Attitude Era is that this was a time when people were into things like Jerry Springer, Sleazy Nighttime Soaps, South Park, and controversial music like prime Eminem.

These days people are more into shows like Ghost Adventures and Duck Dynasty where the guys don't look like your average celebrity yet their shows have better ratings than Raw.

Shows with cohesive storylines, continuity, and characters they can relate to like Walking Dead where characters are constantly developed over time.

The more "relatable" superhero/anti heroes like Wolverine, Batman, and Iron Man along with "Everyman" characters like Spider-Man

Then there is the more edgy "badass" content like Breaking Bad, Game of Thrones, Dexter etc.

With WWE's 3 hour Raw slot, if their priorities were in the right spot then they can Do ALL THAT and give some good wrestling too but they refuse because we have a senile old bat that still thinks he's PT Barnum running the company.

We can't talk about that now can we Vinnie Ru?
 
#20 ·
This is all absolutely true, BUT, there's a big difference between sleazy 90's stuff, and what we have now. I agree, I don't think being sleazy would work at this point, I just think that it's TOO PG. Guys aren't allowed to go out and put on the type of matches they want, because too many moves are deemed dangerous, blood is banned, etc. It just gets to the point where it's corny. Seeing a guy hit another guy in the stomach with a kendo stick just doesn't carry the same psychological value as seeing him head the guy in the head with it.

Not only that, but by banning so many moves, it limits what the guys are allowed to do. Everyone gets on Cena about being a "5 moves of doom" guy, but almost EVERYONE these days only has their 5 move set.
 
#23 ·
Say what you will about Russo's storytelling techniques, at least he did give almost everyone some reason to be out there rasslin'. Sure, sometimes it was Chris Jericho breaking a bottle over Chyna's head and dumping tampons on her, but at least it was a fucking reason.

The current product is so boring because there's nothing to root for other than "I hope he gets that meaningless belt." When the outcomes are predetermined, titles don't mean anything, it should be about their characters and the interactions between them.
 
#28 ·
I think Russo has a point about being 'larger than life' being a draw for casual fans. You need a hook for fans that aren't invested in the product to get them to keep watching. Size and look is one of the easiest to get fans interested. Put Big Show in the ring with no build up and he gets initial attention from which to build on. Put Ziggler in the ring with no build up and nobody cares before you have a chance to hook them.

I think the lack of character and storyline is because of WWE trying to be more like real sports besides fighting sports just like most smarks wanted. Sports have pre-season games, regular season games, lesser profile tournaments around the year that potentially could have big names matching up. But those matches don't draw as much interest as say a Grand Slam final, a Champions League final or a NFL/NBA finals featuring the same names. Athletes nowadays are conditioned to be more team friendly, media friendly than in the past to promote the sport. WWE is probably aping that too hence many bland personalities compared to years past. Also wrestlers themselves are more athletes that focus on their craft or come from a more educated background than crazy party guys in the past with unique personalities that can be leveraged into gimmicks.

There are different level of importance on various WWE shows just like different competitions in the same sports with the same names. WWE has conditioned fans to see Smackdowns/Main Events as pre-season games, Raws like regular season games, PPV like a post season game and Wrestlemania like the SuperBowl. Whether that was the intention or not but that's how I view WWE right now.
 
#29 ·

Interesting perspective. I wouldn't look too deeply into it and just chalk it up to Vince being out of touch and lazy. Smackdown has actually had more storyline development than RAW for the last 3 months because they promoted that NXT writer. No coincidence there. The Ambrose and Wyatt feud has seen all of its best moments on Smackdown for that reason. There are promos, there are vignettes, and the matches have a purpose.

For example, Ziggler vs. Rollins felt more important last week on Smackdown than the other 20 times we've seen that match combined, and all it took was a 3 minute exchange on the microphone. My initial reaction was "Oh great, Ziggler loses again. :StephenA" but I was pleasantly surprised when he won. The match felt important and the finish felt more satisfying. GIVE US A REASON TO CARE!!! That's all we need.
 
#31 ·
I don't think that anyone really wants a show that has ALL context less matches if any.

We don't need super elaborate overwriting or "choppy choppy your pee pee!"

They just need to be angles that are cohesive and make sense.

Whether the story is simply

- a matter of "whose better"

- A blood feud between guys that want to kill each other

- "You got this belt and I want it"

- Gimmick horror/B movie angle

- Power Struggle of the month

Just make it all cohesive and use different methods to develop the angles...Not just promos or backstage brawls.

I've suggested using things like "On Location" segments for blood feuds and B Movie type angles, things like Tournaments or a "Best of 5" match series etc to give undercard title feuds context and the ability to have multiple rematches while building drama for the blowoff.

This to me is what made the year 2000 such a great year for me, the entertainment and wrestling were both well done. Rock and HHH managed to get people to see them in a 1 Iron Match for the belt at Judgement Day 2000.
 
#32 ·
But the casuals aren't watching Cena or Brock or Reigns either. Their numbers are not significantly better than Bryan or Punk or Rollins or Ambrose. It's all essentially stagnant and that is also fact.

Russo is ignoring the fact that no one except The Rock has moved ratings in nearly a decade ..

The casual tuned out at the end of WCW and never came back. Period.
 
#34 ·
"But, at some point, the wrestling business actually started listening to the internet fans."

Wasn't this like...exactly what what WCW 2000 was trying to do? He paints a wrestling company listening to internet fans as being moronic, yet in 2000, under his control, they were constantly giving that wink to smarks to attract their attention.

Remember "Goldberg refuses to follow the script"? You know, because wrestling is scripted and fake, but this match is going to be a REAL fight, unlike everything else on our show.

Even Russo's premise for entering the company was a wink to smarks. The head writer of WWF programming was coming in to...what? Write WCW to the top? Because wrestling is written and scripted, and not real. Yet when he back in April of 2000 and showed up on TV as the main heel in charge of the New Blood, how many casuals in the stands were marking out because WWF's head writer was showing up? 99% probably had no idea who this guy from New York was. They were counting on smarks recognizing him to draw in those viewers because they're the only ones who had heard of him.




Aside from that, I do agree with what he's saying. At least, part of it. We don't need any more Hulk Hogans or King Kong Bundys anymore. AKA the big cartoon characters that suck in ring. But there is something to be said for a guy having that physical charisma that almost commands a presence. Guys like Bryan or Sami Zayn...they just don't have any quality about them that would make a room full of people take notice that he's there. So in terms of guys having that larger than life aura, I agree somewhat.

As for the bad writing and character development...he's pretty much spot on.
 
#36 ·
Aside from that, I do agree with what he's saying. At least, part of it. We don't need any more Hulk Hogans or King Kong Bundys anymore. AKA the big cartoon characters that suck in ring. But there is something to be said for a guy having that physical charisma that almost commands a presence. Guys like Bryan or Sami Zayn...they just don't have any quality about them that would make a room full of people take notice that he's there. So in terms of guys having that larger than life aura, I agree somewhat.

As for the bad writing and character development...he's pretty much spot on.
It really means a lot that a New Japan fan has the balls to admit this. Usually when the small technical wrestlers are attacked, those are the first type of people to freak out.

Except Vince detests those Cruiserweight spotfest type matches, which is why when the Fed had their Cruiserweight division, they also tried to enforce that they should work like the big guys and wrestle WWE style. That's why it was such a flop. No lucha, puro, European or any other styles, just wrestle like the main eventers.
I think we've established that Vince is out of touch


Once Triple H takes over and he transfers that NXT style to the main roster, we're going to see a good amount of those casuals come back when they hear how good wrestling is again.
 
#37 ·
There haven't been intriguing storylines since Russo left. They tried to replicate it in 00 and 01, and it kind of worked but it still wasn't the same. And then when the Invasion shit started up until today it's been nothing but the same old wrestling good guy vs bad guy wrestling angle shit over and over again.
 
#38 ·
The thing about guys like Bryan and Sami Zayn is that they are longterm investments. Once they continue to get over and connect, they produce results....great results.

That's why so many mainstream outlets wanted to either talk to daniel Bryan or talk about Bryan when fans revolted during Mania season as well as his Merch sales growing more and more during his return to the main event.

Part of that could again be the Duck Dynasty effect of people's curiosity being peaked by something or someone that seems different than what they are use to.

On a different note, I don't think "Larger than life" is exclusive to size as much as it is presence and personality.

I mean Austin was slender with a 6 pack and 6 ft 2 yet he was one of the biggest draws in wrestling.
 
#41 ·
Sorry if you misconstrued what I said, but yes, I'm not saying larger than life refers to size. Presence and personality are what I mean. Eddie Guerrero was not even 6 foot and his presence and personality were off the charts. The way he talked, acted, carried himself...he felt like a big deal. The low rider was a great touch.

Guys like Bryan and Zayn...yes they connect with crowds, no denying that. I just don't feel that Bryan in particular is being presented as a real star. Nothing about how he acts, looks, carries himself, talks, etc, makes me feel like I should really get invested in him. Nothing about the character itself feels must see to me.
 
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#42 · (Edited)
i only read part 1 on larger than life appearance and catering to internet fans. all i know is i can't even watch any old ppv's from the 80's and early 90's cuz the wrestling was so basic and unathletic. just clothelines and body slams and other boring shit you probably learn by day 2 in wrestling school.

i'm talking about everyone including the biggest stars in wrestling. once we've been exposed to real wrestling, it's pretty much impossible to go back to clotheslines and body slams and shaking the ropes for energy. it's corny and horrible.
 
#47 · (Edited)
Do people still think guys like cena will beat rollins in a real fight do people like Russo and Dunn not watch Ufc i bet these guys have never been in a real fight and dont know to handle someone bigger than them.

Part 1 was a lot of nonsense wow but i agree part 2 and 3 hardly anyone has character and alot of them are restricted and alot of them dont even get tv time Cena needs to go his holding them and the product back just imagine if Hogan stayed in wwf during the rock and stone cold rise no way they would rise above him that what cena is doing deny it all you want.
 
#49 ·
Part 1: I'm of two mindsets and I agree and disagree with Russo. Nobody wants to see the cartoonish, cheesy good guys anymore. Those were great in the 80's, but they became super cheesy while everyone else grew up in the 90's. That's why people loved WCW. It was badass while WWF has an incredibly goofy/silly product at times. People still want wrestlers with an edge, and that's missing in wrestling these days. It's alright for some guys to be cheesy, like Hulk Hogan considering he was the icon of the 80's, but for anyone else, it's unacceptable. On the other hand, Russo addresses the workaround to the "big steroid guys" in the same part. Guys like Bret Hart and HBK, they looked different. They acted differently from the rest. They had the athletic and wrestling ability to blow people away. Fans loved it. On top of that, they had good if not great character support essentially at all times. If the wrestlers are given support from creative, as well as a chance to prove they're good, they have the chance to get over.

Part 2: I agree wholeheartedly with Russo here. He's spot on. No character development on pretty much anybody in the WWE roster today. We know things about John Cena, but other than him, we know very little about anyone else. Seth Rollins, Ambrose, Wyatt, Cesaro, Swagger, The New Day, Los Matedores, etc. What do we know about any of these guys? Absolutely nothing. Why should we care about people we know nothing about? We shouldn't, and that's the problem. Cena is literally the only guy with any kind of storyline support and they've been telling that same story since about 2007: Cena's a tough guy who never quits or gives up on anything. After close to a decade, you'd think they would add layers or something to his character to make him feel fresh, but it's more stale now than it's ever been.

Part 3: Once again, spot on. No storylines or incredibly weak storylines throughout the entire television product. Wyatt vs. Ambrose has all the tools to make the feud amazing, but the storyline support is so piss poor. It's like creative had a hundred ideas for what they could do with these guys, but they decided not to make it about anything. That's why we had so many different things like Wyatt's rocking chair and Ambrose's father. Did they follow up on anything? Nope. Piss poor storytelling in almost every single feud or no storyline support at all. Typical WWE feud is as follows: Wrestler A and Wrestler B. Wrestle A wins match 1, Wrestler B wins match 2, Wrestler A and Wrestler B have a rubber match to end the feud.
 
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