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green25814 · 05-15-2008, 01:31 PM

OMG ITS HOLLYWOOD SHELTON HES BACK HES BACK OMG OMFG OMG!!!!!!!!1111111

Shelton is an aweful pro-wrestler btw. Want facts? Crowds dont give a shit about his matches. The art of wrestling is to 'fake fight'. Not be super athletic or have OMG WORKRATE!!!!1111

The crowd doesnt care about shelton = hes shit.

Katsuyori Murakami · 05-15-2008, 02:47 PM

Controlling the crowd and dealing with their perceptions, building a match, match structure, getting heat, the story behind behind why Wrestler A is doing what he's doing and why Wrestler B is doing what he's doing, it all falls under the horribly general umbrella of "psychology."

Shelton "working the back" for a little bit plays into the "psychology" of the match in terms of garnering heat for Kofi's comeback because it allows fans to sympathise with (and thus get behind) the babyface who's being beaten down (Protip: this is why Orton abuses headlocks so much). So in that sense it's simple, sound, North American pro wrestling psychology. That's just structure, mostly. But that's something guys like Raven know a lot about.

In another way - in terms of the actual reason WHY Shelton is working on his opponents back, in kayfabe - it's grasping for straws trying to say that it's "good psychology" because it "slows the opponent down." Whose leg are you trying to pull: this is a throw away short little televised WWE match, not a fuckin' King's Road classic. The "why" behind anything is typically not explored in such matches, it's a type of character-heavy pro wrestling where the emphasis is on getting the crowd emotionally involved. Things like why a wrestler is employing such and such a strategy during a match and how it's going to help him to victory are relegated to afterthoughts. For example, if Shelton can pick the opponent up and suplex him, why doesn't he just hit his finishing move instead when it's just as quick and easy? Exploring the reasoning is futile to begin with because the notion that the match is going to follow a logical course is thrown away from the outset: the idea is just to make people feel empathy towards the babyface and spite towards the heel. Logic and realism is scarcely relevant.

This is something Raven knows sweet fuck all about; I've never seen a single Raven match which was realistic or logical. If you subscribe to everything Raven has to say because you were born with rocks in your head, then things like Kobashi vs Hansen matches and Robinson vs Inoki matches are very terrible because they don't follow this type of "psychology" so strictly, they require you to become invested in the match by observing the actions of the wrestlers and thinking about WHY they're doing what they're doing because it's pro wrestling presented as an actual sport. Of course, that's bullshit, because those matches are excellent and Raven is a fucking toolshed.

So it really depends how you like your wrestling. If you're a huge WWE mark and you like that Southern North American, character heavy, strict heel/face dynamic shit where matches are worked in a formulaic way so as to really blatently rely on drawing heat through sympathy, then yes: Shelton's "psychology" is perfectly mediocre just like everyone else who does that. But if you like wrestling presented as a sporting contest, with any degree of realism which makes sense and doesn't leave you having to fill in the gaps for yourself as to what the kayfabe reason for a wrestler's actions might be (eg: "Shelton was um... taking out Kofi's back which um... slows him down because um... an injured back effects the opponents ability to perform most moves!") then the match in question (and indeed most of Shelton's WWE matches) are as shitty as the majority of WWE's in general.

Not that working like that means you CAN'T have logical matches ever, it just means there isn't much of a need to in that environment. But the guys who DO still work logical, semi-realistic matches while still doing the character heavy heel/face emotional appeal shit, they're the truly good wrestlers, guys like MVP. Shelton Benjamin on the other hand is not one of them. It's not his fault he has to wrestle WWE's shitty, fast food equivalent, McWrestling style, but it is his fault that he doesn't make the most of it like a select few in WWE do.

That's mostly all I have to say in a nutshell about this argument you guys are having over whether Shelton displays good or bad "psychology."

dodgeball64 · 05-15-2008, 03:34 PM

i recently went to a WWE house show, and Kofi-Shelton had opening duty, and I will say they stole the show!!

Nate Essex · 05-15-2008, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by green25814

OMG ITS HOLLYWOOD SHELTON HES BACK HES BACK OMG OMFG OMG!!!!!!!!1111111

Shelton is an aweful pro-wrestler btw. Want facts? Crowds dont give a shit about his matches. The art of wrestling is to 'fake fight'. Not be super athletic or have OMG WORKRATE!!!!1111

The crowd doesnt care about shelton = hes shit.

Quote:

WWE house show report 5-12 Toledo

by Joshua Henninger

Before the show, Eve Torres gave four tickets to a kid's family for naming the current United States Champion correctly (Matt Hardy). Also, Howard Finkel was doing the announcing for the night, and announced three stipulations for the United States Championship match between Matt Hardy and MVP: a falls count anywhere match, a 2 out of 3 falls match, or a No DQ match. The crowd was more or less behind the No DQ match.

1. Kofi Kingston def. Shelton Benjamin with Trouble in Paradise. Crowd was mainly behind Kofi, and Shelton was a heat machine.

2. Natalya and Victoria def. Michelle McCool and Cherry after Cherry missed Natalya from the top rope. Very bland match.

3. Tommy Dreamer def. Mike Knox in a very short match. No real good moments during it.

4. Ted DiBiase Jr. def. Chuck Palumbo via DQ. The disqualification itself was a bit odd, since it came on Chuck railing Ted's groin on the top rope. Neither Chuck or Ted were that spectacular, but at least Ted knows the basics of wrestling fairly well.

5. Finlay (with Hornswoggle) and Jamie Noble def. Zach Ryder and Curt Hawkins. Plenty of shenanigans came in this match, as Hornswoggle lost his shoe during the match (after coming into the ring and distracting both Ryder and Hawkins with a juggling act). Finlay came back in the ring, picked up his shoe, and tossed it into the crowd. End of the match came with a distraction to the referee by Hornswoggle, a Trailer Hitch from Noble to one of the Edgeheads, and a shillelagh from Finlay to the other Edgehead.

After the match, Finlay called for the kid who got Hornswoggle's shoe to give it back for his hat. The kid obliged, came into the ring, and ran around the ring with Hornswoggle after being given his hat.

-- Intermission --

6. The Miz and John Morrison def. Jesse and Festus to retain the WWE Tag Team Championship. Before the match, John Morrison and The Miz took off their shirts and did their best Rick Rude impressions. Also, John Morrison took his shirt that he had on and tied it over Festus' head so that John's face was easily viewable on his head (it was his "Beyond Good and Evil" shirt). Once the bell rang, Festus kept the shirt on his head as he chased The Miz out of the ring, and kept it on for about the first few minutes. When Festus finally took off the shirt, he did his own Rick Rude impression, which was very funny to say the least. Miz and Morrison win when The Miz distracts the ref and John Morrison hits Festus with his tag team belt.

Before the United States Championship match, Teddy Long came in and announced that the No DQ match was chosen with ~86% of the vote.

7. Matt Hardy def. Montel Vontavious Porter to retain the United States Championship. I didn't pay much attention to the match. The ending came with MVP attempting to hit Matt Hardy with the title, Hardy ducking and delivering the Twist of Fate to MVP.

8. The Undertaker, Kane, and Big Show def. Chavo Guerrero, Edge, and Mark Henry (w/ Bam Neely). The crowd was electric for Undertaker, and booed Edge heavily. The end comes with each of the winning side giving a choke slam to each of the losing side, and Taker giving Edge a Tombstone Piledriver.

Biggest Pops:
1. The Undertaker
2. Finlay (mainly because of Hornswoggle)
3. Matt Hardy

Biggest Heat:
1. Edge
2. Montel Vontavious Porter
3. Shelton Benjamin

From this past Monday. So do me a favor, Green, stop that lying. Morrison and Miz FINALLY got some heat after getting dead reactions their entire tag title run and even during that overpushed ECW title run. Benjamin kicked Kofi's ass last week..crowd booed the fuck out of him. Everytime he does something where he's allowed to be a heel, the crowd responds accordingly. Not Edge level but good enough. So stop lying for the sake of lying. You only play yourself in the end, like the Puro Mark who's created his own guidelines for what psychology in a wrestling match is.

green25814 · 05-15-2008, 05:14 PM

How convenient, the one time Shelton becomes a heat magnet is on a non-televised show.

Sorry man. Untill i see shelton get a crowd involved in person, i will remain a detractor.

By the way, puro mark, if you want to see pro-wrestling as a sport, watch the ufc or something. Pushing pro-wrestling as logical and realistic is impossible, because it then stops being pro-wrestling.

**Chelseafan** · 05-15-2008, 05:36 PM

Hollywood Shelton always adds a lot to a thread.

ivesaidway2much · 05-15-2008, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katsuyori Murakami

Not that working like that means you CAN'T have logical matches ever, it just means there isn't much of a need to in that environment. But the guys who DO still work logical, semi-realistic matches while still doing the character heavy heel/face emotional appeal shit, they're the truly good wrestlers, guys like MVP. Shelton Benjamin on the other hand is not one of them. It's not his fault he has to wrestle WWE's shitty, fast food equivalent, McWrestling style, but it is his fault that he doesn't make the most of it like a select few in WWE do.

I'm curious. How is MVP different? The juking and jiveing and ballin' type stuff he does would seem to disqualify him from your wrestling as a sporting event example.

**-ShowStopper-™** · 05-15-2008, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kennedy=god

I'll take any site (Even if you can edit it), over the opinion of:

You'll take some site's word over yourself?

Unless you're calling Levy a 13 year old, which would put you in the running for the biggest gimmick poster on this forum.

Katsuyori Murakami · 05-16-2008, 12:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by green25814

By the way, puro mark, if you want to see pro-wrestling as a sport, watch the ufc or something. Pushing pro-wrestling as logical and realistic is impossible, because it then stops being pro-wrestling.

I do watch MMA, pro mark. Plenty of WWE westlers past and present wrestle logical matches. And it always manages to still remain pro wrestling believe it or not. It doesn't have to be shoot style, it just has to be realistic enough that when fans watch it they (or the announcers) don't have to make assumptions or make things up to justify what the wrestlers are doing or why they're doing it, really.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ivesaidway2much

I'm curious. How is MVP different? The juking and jiveing and ballin' type stuff he does would seem to disqualify him from your wrestling as a sporting event example.

Taunting is an almost unchanging constant with most heels. His wrestling itself; what he does and why he does it, that's what makes him good. He works within the bounds of WWE's shitty psychology, but he makes the most of it by not only doing that in such a way that he successfully draws heat where and when he needs to, but that his wrestling is also makes sense and generally doesn't have any gaping holes in logic. Generally when I watch MVP matches I don't find myself asking "what was the point of that" or "why didn't he just do such and such?"

**BrownieDude** · 05-16-2008, 02:46 AM

MVP has decent psychology but he is nothing amazing.

I don't know why the argument is over what psychology is.... fact is Shelton has decent enough psychology, is very capable of telling a story and the bottom line is very entertaining and competent in the ring. I bet if Shelton wasn't a high-flyer and was pushed purely as a technical wrestler then the guys who criticise him would be singing his praises.