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Old 04-06-2012, 03:55 PM   #2101 (permalink)
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Default Re: SPOILER THREAD FOR Game of Thrones (TV series discussion)

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Originally Posted by MrMister View Post
Thanks for taking this to this thread Genesis. You guys were coming awfully close to talking about book Cersei and I didn't want to say SPOILERS because that would've given it away. Show Cersei hasn't really displayed how dumb she really is just yet.

And she totally outplayed Robert, but Robert didn't even know he was playing a game. He was oblivious to politics. He's a war machine not suited for such things. He's a conqueror and a damn good one, but has no clue or even cares about keeping what he takes.


Also compare Victarion to Littlefinger. If Vic is in a bad mood, Littlefinger is fucking dead, end of story. This is hypothetical of course.
For the first, it's no issue at all dude. I was like 'Spoilers' the hell? Now that you're pointing out the direction it was going & not the post itself, makes perfect sense.

I would never ruin Ceresei's decline in intelligence & ascent into blind arrogance. Just think how they'll feel when she ends up on Trial.

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Originally Posted by IMPULSE View Post
i don't find cersei aerys dangerous at all. joffrey maybe, cersei isn't mad.

getting the throne and maintaining it are two different things. i'm not referencing the conqueror because well the game of thrones didn't exist before him. there was no throne. it was just people invading westeroes over and over again, and he was the first to unite the throne. i like to think different time, different measures.

if i'm keying into intelligence. it's because cersei lack of it concerning this game has her in her current position. where this argument stems from is cersei dismissal of little finger's statement. he tell her knowledge is power, she disagrees saying power is power. her son then one ups her with his power and if she had the knowledge of how to deal with him he would have never leveled his threat. she's close minded.

talented pieces can be knocked out by angry men. hell aerys knocked tywin down plenty of times.

trueborn argument shows how short sighted she is. she wasn't plannning on that to play some game of thrones. she didn't give robert an heir out of hate. he called her the name of another woman and she hated him for it. it bruised her pride so bad she decided to ruin his life. if she had one child with him, this mess that she created never occurs. no one would go looking into genetics. she could had easily had one after joffrey or her daughter. i can say no one would look into genetics because arya is the only stark that looks like eddard. no one goes around questioning if cat children have edmure as a brother. she out maneuvered robert who didn't want to be a king. he wasn't playing a game.

cersei plays chess, while everyone else plays checkers. she gets her king and jumps over the smaller things. one child and stannis and renly claim looks awful.

she didn't even eliminate eddard that was littlefinger who did him in.

i can't go around giving her a round of applause when she gets her son on the throne. she has to deal with the north and the riverlands becoming and independent nation. storm end's and the reach backing renly. dragonstone backing stannis. the iron islands planning on being king. dorne and the vale staying out of it. for someone so good at playing this game, she has over half the kingdom denying her son's reign. he rules the westerlands at this point.

the north and the riverlands wouldn't have rebelled if her dangerously reckless son didn't chop eddard's off.
Everything you've posted here actually feeds into what I've been saying: She's fairly intelligent, she's malicious which goes hand & hand in the Game from House Lannnister, she's had a number of monumental successes playing the Game, & even while her enemies (newly made or old) fall around her, she's still alive & pulling strings, discredited or no.

Fact of the matter is any move of consequence, & removing a King you despise & crowning Kings of your own blood that you can have a strong influence with, comes with ramifications. That's just magnified because of her growing carelessness as she ascends. When she was still in Robert's shadow & pulling the strings as much as possible during the earliest portion of Joffrey's reign, she was forced to be more careful, as she adjusts to her role, she discards her caution & just goes for hammer strokes. Like I said, she's Tywin 100% when it comes to pride, brutality, & making enemies of any House not under their banner. She just lacks his tact, his inherent caution, his willingness to wait.

The fact that you keep absolving Joffrey of his wrongdoing, his pure idiocy, is ridiculous. You want to talk about someone who can't play the Game & makes no attempt to do so, it's Joffrey. He's utterly useless, completely controlled by his rage & whims.

Hell, Ceresei sees this in her son & she isn't as bothered by it because it allows her to step in & rule for a time, in his name prior to Tyrion acting as King's Hand. Even afterward, she continues to pull her own strings.

You don't have to like her but she's a capable player, at least at the outset & even more important than all that, she was powerful. Intelligence & cunning don't always reign supreme in the Game.
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Old 04-06-2012, 04:04 PM   #2102 (permalink)
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Default Re: SPOILER THREAD FOR Game of Thrones (TV series discussion)

It also should be noted that Cersei is still in the game. No way is she done. Humbled to the extreme yeah, but she ain't done. While she's no Varys (no one is as good as Varys), she is tenacious. We'll see her claw her way back into it. Can she learn from her awful mistakes though? We'll see.

I find her main fault is obsession. She obsesses about the younger more beautiful woman that is "destined" to replace her, and there's always the valonqar in the back of her mind. If she let these phantom threats go, she'd be able to act with a more clear mind.
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Old 04-06-2012, 04:14 PM   #2103 (permalink)
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Default Re: SPOILER THREAD FOR Game of Thrones (TV series discussion)

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Originally Posted by MrMister View Post
It also should be noted that Cersei is still in the game. No way is she done. Humbled to the extreme yeah, but she ain't done. While she's no Varys (no one is as good as Varys), she is tenacious. We'll see her claw her way back into it. Can she learn from her awful mistakes though? We'll see.

I find her main fault is obsession. She obsesses about the younger more beautiful woman that is "destined" to replace her, and there's always the valonqar in the back of her mind. If she let these phantom threats go, she'd be able to act with a more clear mind.
This is true, she's tenacious if she's nothing else, she definitely won't allow herself to be removed from play by anything but Death & even then, she'd probably return as a White Walker.

I have to say though, her trial was by far one of the most satisfying situations in the entire series. Not only did she get what she deserved it was due primarily to the fact that she recklessly reinstated the militant arm of the Faith. Heh, & then Ser Gregor's back from the dead to be her Champion. Awesome.
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Old 04-06-2012, 04:24 PM   #2104 (permalink)
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Default Re: SPOILER THREAD FOR Game of Thrones (TV series discussion)

Ah, White Walker Cersei v Lord of Light fueled Catelyn. This will be the final battle.

I very much enjoyed reading her self destruction in Feast too. My last re-read I found myself looking forward to her chapters the most.
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Old 04-06-2012, 05:08 PM   #2105 (permalink)
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Default Re: SPOILER THREAD FOR Game of Thrones (TV series discussion)

we're arguing two different things. we've seen cersei play and we've seen her results their awful. not only has she embarrassed herself. she has a prophecy that dictates her actions and cause her to do stupid things. her own family think she's painfully bad at the game. they have time and time again neutralized her power. or told her to get a grip on things.


joffrey isn't playing a game of thrones. he thinks he's the rightful king. our argument stemmed from being very little more dangerous than mad king mad. i said joffrey probably is, what i've been arguing is that cersei isn't mad king mad. her danger can be dealt with. her reach can be avoided and you can fool her easily.

we've seen her elevate people off who she think she can control and give her flashbacks to things robbed from her. she's lost investments, she has no support. she's constantly playing off someone else game. hell a lot of her positioning and moves are based off of littlefinger's infrastructure and she continuously gets played by him. the infrastructure she made fell apart and lead to her downfall. her decisions have this overwhelming tendency to be double edged swords.

cersei is very much bothered by her son. she continuously has to regret that she let her son chop stark's head off. tyrion was only sent because tywin felt she couldn't control her son. her son put them in the position she is in now.

if we argue in the context of the whole series she's the worst active player. i won't give her credit for sticking around because then i have to applaud mace tyrell by all account isn't impressive at all. if i praise cersei for staying afloat, i have to pat mace, doran, and stannis all on the back.

since we're arguing in the context of the show. we have seven kingdoms. four of them are in outright rebellion of the crown. two lands that belong to the crown's family is out right rebelling. the other two kingdoms the vale and the dorne aren't raising the banner for her king. she's lost her brother to the starks. her main accomplishment at this point is getting lady killed. the westerlands the only one fighting for their king is losing a war to the starks. her son is slipping out of her control. her father sent her hated brother to rule instead of her.

her crowning accomplishment getting a full lannister on the throne. wasn't strategic. it was pure spite. for being called lyanna. the fallout from her decision could have been neutralized with one child from robert. the north seceding is easily avoided if she could have controlled her child. she is short sighted in her game, has awful judgment, incapable of rule. her paranoia of a prophecy ruined her.

you can't be capable and go from the top of the pecking order to the bottom. she's an enable for the real players in theory. she was sidelined when tyrion was a hand and was a spectator. she enabled littlefinger to reach his current position. hell one of the players went out of their way to make sure she was in a position where she could crawl herself back to power. she's an inefficient lannister and the two shouldn't go together.
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Old 04-06-2012, 05:39 PM   #2106 (permalink)
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Default Re: SPOILER THREAD FOR Game of Thrones (TV series discussion)

Mace isn't playing for the Tyrells. Olenna is. Stannis has done pretty well having little support. Davos is the guy that's really kept him in the game though.

Doran has done nothing really. The one thing he did failed because Dany is an idiot. It wasn't Quentyn's fault she's blind. On the other hand Quentyn was ill suited to be a suitor, but an alliance with Dorne could only be a good thing.

As for Cersei, you're attributing a lot of failures to her she could never accomplish. She'd never get the Vale or Dorne to raise their banners for them. Not even Tywin could do that. The Martells hate the Lannisters as much if not more than the Starks. The Vale is allied to...lol...yeah. She had no control over losing Jaime to the Starks either. Tywin sending Tyrion, however, does show how little Tywin thinks of Cersei.

I do agree that paranoia and obsession blinded her and brought about her downfall. But again, she's not done/dead. I can't see her giving up her obsessions however. She's had them since she was a child. If she does let go of her obsessions, she could be good at the game. As it is, yeah, she's awful.
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Old 04-06-2012, 06:01 PM   #2107 (permalink)
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Default Re: SPOILER THREAD FOR Game of Thrones (TV series discussion)

mace think he's playing the game though. he's a pawn just like cersei was a pawn to her father when he was looking for marriages. when kevan used her as a pawn. she sat back and watch her child get used as tyrion's pawn. if being a pawn disqualifies than you cersei is just thinking she's playing the game when in reality she isn't.

cmon mrmmister stannis battling the elements. oh we're doing so well while we wait for sunshine.

doran isn't defeated mrmister. so by genesis train of thought i have to applaud him. the vale and dorne thing was basically me saying she has her whole kingdom in rebellion. the two kingdoms who aren't in rebellion are willing to let the others fight it out. if you think about she only has the westerlands. she secures her son on the throne and he gets dominion over one kingdom.


here goes my thoughts on cersei. banks come for their money. she goes you think money is something, it's isn't POWER is everything.

this also sums her up. hey littlefinger, power is power. guess what here's a castle. this castle gives you power that grants you what you wanted a kingdom of your own. oh, i miss littlefinger he knew how to use coins. now i can't power is power littlefinger. who i've effectively made untouchable to my reach and now i need a competent master of coin.

i haven't gone into how her own initiatives tend to bite her in the ass. her plot bit her in the ass. arming people bit her in the ass. the people she surrounds herself flee, or giver her up. it's all signs of incompetence. she's like the spread offense quarterback who can't convert to an NFL offense. she'll probably be competent and pay attention to the fine prints when she claws herself into a respectable position again.
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Old 04-06-2012, 06:17 PM   #2108 (permalink)
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Default Re: SPOILER THREAD FOR Game of Thrones (TV series discussion)

Yeah Mace does think highly of himself and comparing him to Cersei is pretty valid really. Olenna has better control of him than Tywin does of Cersei, but then again Cersei is in a much more prominent position. I never meant Mace wasn't playing, even if that's what I said, he's just not the Tyrell in charge. Cersei outlasted Tywin, Tyrion, and Kevan. She's the one now. Jaime is pretty adept when he wants to be, but he's Kingsguard atm and riding to his apparent death. Only time will tell how Cersei turns out. I have to think she'll fail due to her history, but GRRM has a way of pulling off the old swerve.

Cersei is far more influential than Mace though, even if she's had a severe negative effect for the Lannisters.

Stannis had made allies with Jon Snow. That was a good move, but it was really Mel and Davos that got that ball rolling (and Samwell heavily influenced Jon becoming Lord Commander). He also got White Harbor via Davos as well. I don't think Stannis is that great. I did say what he's done he owes much if not all to Davos. As for Stannis being snowed in, plenty of competent leaders have had this happen to them in reality. He has no control over this. I also seem to remember him making a deal with Tycho Nestoris. That's a very powerful ally to have, probably his most powerful ally.
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Old 04-06-2012, 08:40 PM   #2109 (permalink)
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Default Re: SPOILER THREAD FOR Game of Thrones (TV series discussion)

she outlasted all of them because they happened to be competent. especially the latest. who died because he was repairing the damage she had done. which is why i found the capable argument so funny. because a player went out their way to put her in position to regain power. showing they don't think much of her.

mace has more power at the moment though. he'll be making specialized chairs, so it doesn't matter. his incompetence in the field could ruin him.

i was making a joke about his conditions. even the banker he only got support from because of the capable lannister. hence my vague money comments. he has the lord of light, you think that lord could make the snow melt. i like DAVOS and stannis is okay.

i've put way too much effort into arguing over opinions. i should have talked about dolphins and genesis would have given up. i'm really done talk about cersei though. i actually don't like dislike her, i'm thoroughly amused by her.
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Old 04-07-2012, 02:34 AM   #2110 (permalink)
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Default Re: SPOILER THREAD FOR Game of Thrones (TV series discussion)

Yeah, I learned long ago that arguing with Impulse usually ends up with me suffering migraine like symptoms.

I still find it disconcerting how Euron became one of my favorite characters in a relatively short amount of time. Martin is one masterful bastard when it comes to building a character you can give a damn about. Even the throwaways leave a lasting impression.
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