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Old 08-31-2013, 07:32 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Default Re: TDL V: HIGH STAKES - THE RESULTS

Demodded, dechampioned and TAKEN THE FUCK OUT. Not a good show for him.
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Old 08-31-2013, 07:34 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Default Re: TDL V: HIGH STAKES - THE RESULTS

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The start of your piece read like a newspaper article, with far too much irrelevant story telling involved. You don’t need to waste over one hundred words telling the judges what the Olympics are all about while also proposing many questions which later remained unanswered or left open to debate. You could have cut out that whole first paragraph and it wouldn’t have made the slightest difference to your chances of winning. It genuinely read like a fluff piece which was used to fill up space due to a lack of concepts and angles emanating from your mind. At least I hope that’s the case. If you have extra ideas in future debates then you should try to cut out pointless paragraphs like this. Again, why do so many debaters delay the clarification of what they’re arguing for while wasting so many precious words?
Had a ton of words to use if i wanted, opening paragraph was to set up what i believe to make a great achievement at the olympics. pretty simple to see that imho.

Quote:
Your second paragraph was where your debate should have started, deliberating the potential candidates before defining which one’s achievements stood out the most. In the next paragraph you made several excellent arguments as to why Bolt’s achievements stood out the most. The only issue that I had with this paragraph was “Not only that but there is something about the 100m sprint that creates an atmosphere that is almost unrivalled by other events”, a throwaway statement about that event being the most popular, something which has nothing to do with Bolt’s personal achievements. Now, if you had elaborated on this and argued that Bolt’s fame was a great part of the reason why the 100 m sprint was so popular at the 2012 Olympics then you could have been onto something. If only you had an extra hundred words to spare…
Bolt's fame doesn't make the 100m popular. It is popular b/c its the 100m sprint you muppet Bolt's popularity is due to the 100m sprint, not the other way around. Which is exactly what i said. Either say the popularity doesn't matter, or don't say something retarded like "Bolt made the 100m popular".

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Crucially, that final sentence of your third paragraph signified a drastic decrease in quality within your debate. You don’t need to over-elaborate and make introductions explaining that you’re going to make counter points; your arguments should be strong enough to do that by themselves. Unfortunately, your arguments against Phelps were weak. In fact, you did more to strengthen his claim for “greatest achiever” by giving his long term and short term ground breaking achievements a glowing review. This was in great contrast to your points against him: “However I feel that his performance wasn’t at the same level as Bolt, and neither was the pressure on him”. Oh yeah, really mate? Care to elaborate a little? It is all well and good saying you believe in something, but you have to support these beliefs with arguments, reasoning and evidence.
Fair enough, i glossed over it a bit.

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Likewise, “Unlike Phelps or Bolt’s accomplishments, Ennis’ won’t remain a part of Olympic folklore” fell flat for me for two specific reasons. (1) Have you got a time machine and can you see into the future? If so, please add a picture or video of your time travelling exploits as a reference in future debates. (2) “Jessica Ennis was the face of London 2012, she had the weight of an entire country on her shoulders competing in front of her countrymen” actually makes an argument that Ennis could go down in Olympic folklore due to her ability to overcome the odds in her home country, that is a Disney Elton John cheesy schmaltz style movie ending right there.
No, i just have imperical evidence. Look at Cathy Freeman. Won the gold here in the 400m in Australia, which is barely remembered. Likewise the swimming golds won here at the 2000 Olympics. Which is why i put the historical significance element. Not many people remember who won gold's, most will be forgotten decades after. You need to transgress the sport to be remembered. Ennis hasn't done that at all.

Quote:
I’ll give you great credit for carefully dissecting Pretorius’ claim through facts and comparisons to Jacqueline Freney. On the other hand, you actually made a very strong argument for Freney as the rightful claimant to the title of “greatest achiever”; to try and dismiss her claim by stating she suffered from a lack of media coverage is a non-point because a great achievement is a great achievement regardless of coverage. “This lack of attention on the Paralympics is disappointing but it diminishes the pressure on her”, therefore wouldn’t the pressure be taken away from all of the Paralympians, thus making it a level playing field again? Not sure where you were going with that one. The potential of the “historical significance” of Freney’s achievements was also brought up. Now, putting aside the chance that you might be Dr Who, who’s to say that the Paralympics won’t be widely revered in fifty years’ time? After cutting the grisly fat from your arguments against Freney I was just left with one sentence rattling around my skull, “She had the most impressive performance out of everyone”.
greatest performance =/= greatest achievement. Paralympics suffers in comparison to the Olympics. Again, fairly self explanatory imo.

Quote:
The final paragraph was essentially repetition concerning Bolt’s achievements. Now while I agree that his claim is strong, at this point I was still waiting for some powerful counter arguments to salvage the debate after you had ironically strengthened the claims of most of the competitors who you were supposed to be debating against, but none were to be had. This was an okay debate with some strong arguments for, but some very poor ones against. The debate also suffered from over-elaboration within introductions and paragraph links that didn’t require it while some of your arguments were all too brief and lacking conviction. A top quality debate is generally concise, factual, aggressive, engaging and convincing. This debate lacked most of these qualities except for when you argued for Bolt and against Pretorius.
which is what i was arguing for So "a quality debate has qualities a, b and c, which you didn't have except when you argued your main points for the topic" hmmm, yeah. makes complete sense

agreed with Evo's point about the open ended question. Could literally pick anyone and say its a great achievement. Much prefer something where the answer is a black and white "yes or no" type of thing. Argue for or against 1 particular thing, not try to pick someone out of thousands of people.

Well done to Perfect Poster though. Will be back to get my belt back soon
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Old 08-31-2013, 07:40 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Default Re: TDL V: HIGH STAKES - THE RESULTS

Well done Clique, awesome debate and not too shabby from Andre either.

@Headliner, the moral status of animals is the core of the whole argument that animal rights campaigners use for the banning of animal testing. I figured it was a counter-argument that merited some debate time to dismantle.

No probs with the judging though, I think the best debate won. I'm not too lucky with these three and four-ways. I'm undefeated in one-on-ones though. I'll repeat that over and over to myself for a while and I'll be okay.
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Old 08-31-2013, 07:49 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Default Re: TDL V: HIGH STAKES - THE RESULTS

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Congrats to the two new champions. Evo was in a lose lose situation in the admin debate. He was getting demodded by the losing admin either way.
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Demodded, dechampioned and TAKEN THE FUCK OUT. Not a good show for him.
I feel like Orton after getting kicked out from Evolution.

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Old 08-31-2013, 07:50 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Default Re: TDL V: HIGH STAKES - THE RESULTS

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Originally Posted by Rush View Post
Had a ton of words to use if i wanted, opening paragraph was to set up what i believe to make a great achievement at the olympics. pretty simple to see that imho.
Another judge agreed with me on this, get over it.

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Originally Posted by Rush View Post
Bolt's fame doesn't make the 100m popular. It is popular b/c its the 100m sprint you muppet Bolt's popularity is due to the 100m sprint, not the other way around. Which is exactly what i said. Either say the popularity doesn't matter, or don't say something retarded like "Bolt made the 100m popular".
Which has nothing to do with the debate, hence why it was a pointless part to include. I didn't write "Bolt made it popular", I said If you could argue that he was a part of that and how "that was an achievement" then it might have made it worthwhile, but you didn't/couldn't, so why include it? More wasted words.

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Originally Posted by Rush View Post
No, i just have imperical evidence. Look at Cathy Freeman. Won the gold here in the 400m in Australia, which is barely remembered. Likewise the swimming golds won here at the 2000 Olympics. Which is why i put the historical significance element. Not many people remember who won gold's, most will be forgotten decades after. You need to transgress the sport to be remembered. Ennis hasn't done that at all.
Comparing something that passed 13 years ago to something that passed ONE year ago is ridiculous in this context. Society and culture change, you also have to consider that Ennis might become far more marketable in the future, so many elements to consider. Also, if you're going to make an argument like that (Cathy Freeman) THEN USE IT IN THE DEBATE instead.

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Originally Posted by Rush View Post
greatest performance =/= greatest achievement. Paralympics suffers in comparison to the Olympics. Again, fairly self explanatory imo.
...but that's your job to define that point, but you really didn't do that well enough, as explained later on when I said your counter points were weak...if I was supposed to assume everything and fill in the gaps then what would be the point? That's your job to convince me.

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which is what i was arguing for So "a quality debate has qualities a, b and c, which you didn't have except when you argued your main points for the topic" hmmm, yeah. makes complete sense
...and then I explained how PP's argument FOR was far stronger, hence why you needed to improve the rest of your debate in order to match up. You had good qualities when arguing for Bolt (1/4 or less of your debate), but hardly anywhere else. Meanwhile PP was STREETS ahead in terms of persuasion FOR, while slightly ahead in arguments against. To have beaten him you would have had to improve all round.

Last edited by Andre : 08-31-2013 at 08:14 AM.
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Old 08-31-2013, 07:51 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Default Re: TDL V: HIGH STAKES - THE RESULTS

Aww crap, I'm going to get beaten to a pulp.
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Old 08-31-2013, 07:55 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Default Re: TDL V: HIGH STAKES - THE RESULTS

If I've taken anything from this it's that I see TLK is beatable.

Extremely good, but beatable.
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Old 08-31-2013, 07:57 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Default Re: TDL V: HIGH STAKES - THE RESULTS

Had a chance to read through it all, tears at Froot's adventure and the Geoff appearence

On my debate, I tried to add a little bit of wit and stamp my personality on it at times. Figured it would make it more enjoyable and fun whilst I get up to scratch with my writing in general and it will be something I bring with me on future debates.

Once again, well in Anders kidder, the rest of the lids who took part and everybody who put it together. Really enjoying these.
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Old 08-31-2013, 08:13 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Default Re: TDL V: HIGH STAKES - THE RESULTS

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If I've taken anything from this it's that I see TLK is beatable.

Extremely good, but beatable.
As good as TLK's debate was, I, for some reason thought Zombo had him beat after I read the two debates.
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Old 08-31-2013, 08:35 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Anark View Post
Well done Clique, awesome debate and not too shabby from Andre either.

@Headliner, the moral status of animals is the core of the whole argument that animal rights campaigners use for the banning of animal testing. I figured it was a counter-argument that merited some debate time to dismantle.

No probs with the judging though, I think the best debate won. I'm not too lucky with these three and four-ways. I'm undefeated in one-on-ones though. I'll repeat that over and over to myself for a while and I'll be okay.
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Pleased to win one decision in my social debate while also receiving strong all round praise. Not bad for a two hour effort, just makes bully look even more pathetic. Well done to Clique who is clearly a top class debater. SPCDRI vs Clique will be a top class title match.
Thank you for the compliments and for also stepping up. I bet Anark wishes Bully had showed up because let me tell you that was one hell of a debate to defeat. I am very pleased to know that I won against two of the very best. Andre, when I submitted my debate I thought about the various animal testing procedures but decided to keep it focused on the medical purposes because it left no room to weaken the scope I chose for my stance. Very good points Anark, and I was a little surprised there was not one debate arguing for the banning because most polls I came across in my research the majority voted for a ban on animal testing. I considered coming for PETA's neck for their euthanizing thousands of animals every year but I figure I had enough to sustain my argument. I also had met my word count anyway.

For the celebrity debate, great job by KLEE. You brought it again and took another vote again. I thought I produced a unanimous decision quality debate, but the W will suffice.

SPCDRI, I said I was coming for the title and I'M HERE! Your dominance doesn't instill fear nor doubt but motivation and determination to take the championship away. I will have to fight harder than ever before to beat you. Make no mistake about it, this will be your toughest challenge to date. I promise you.


Spoiler for Congrats to my brotha Headliner on the win!:
Celebration at MacArthur's! One of the finest soul food restaurants in Chi-town. For the championship victory we will have a cookout with BBQ, the best R&B of the 80s and 90s, playing spades and dominos, steppin, and drinking brown liquor.

Seabs did amazingly as well and I would be mistaken if I did not give you recognition too. Could have gone either way really. I am a little mad you used the same post match joke on me for two cards now. Am I your 'A+' Superstar or not? rton

Last edited by Clique : 08-31-2013 at 11:33 PM.
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