Re: TDL XVII: ONE YEAR ANNIVERSARY SHOW - THE CARD
Originally Posted by Elipses Corter
No disrespect but I think I'm more deserving than you.
After all, I did beat you at TDL XV.
Originally Posted by Seabs
TDL XI: MANY A PRINCE, BUT ONLY ONE A KING
CGS vs CamillePunk vs Jupiter Jack Daniels vs TheLoneShark Should WWE do an 8 man one night only elimination tournament on PPV in 2014?
Spoiler for Debates:
Should WWE do an 8 man one night only elimination tournament on PPV in 2014?
For decades the WWE and the wrestling industry as a whole has used tournaments to settle situations. From #1 contenderships, to the crowning of a new champion, to even to just being able to say “I beat all of you, I DEMAND, NO I DESERVE RESPCT! Tournaments have become a staple within the company and are an easy tool to employ whenever required.
So in that case having a tournament based PPV in 2014 WWE is perfectly logical right? LOL No
Let’s start with the obvious fact. We currently have 12 WWE PPV’s on the 2014 schedule, Of Which 7 carry a specific gimmick. Royal Rumble, Elimination Chamber, Extreme Rules, Money in the Bank, Night of Champions, Hell in a Cell and TLC. Most of these PPV’s really serve zero purpose other than just be a gimmick show for the sake of it. So why throw another into the mix? Many fans have been crying out for a reduction in the number of gimmick based PPV’s anyway. Last thing we need is adding yet another when most of the current crop is considered excessive and pointless
Hmm let’s just think about that one for a second.
Like I said, there are a bunch of reasons as to why these tournaments are held, some are used to crown a new champion or #1 contender(s) while others are just to say “I’m better than all of you”, But mostly they are used to put someone over, possibly a rising midcard talent, possibly a high level star just looking to add to their long list of accomplishments. Whatever the reasons it can be useful. But we have to remember, we have Wrestlemania, we have the Royal Rumble, hell we even have the MITB briefcase to help put over talent. Realistically is another PPV that will probably just shoot someone into the limelight for say 2/3 months before sending them back down the totem pole in typical WWE fashion required?
Which is a great statement, especially considering WWE’s current level of star power. But I gotta ask then, where exactly are you gonna find the time to fit in this tournament alongside a WWE World Heavyweight Championship match and possibly 1/2 extra lowercard matches in order to really put this guy over on a 3 hour show?
Bar Wrestlemania your average WWE PPV tends to have between 6- 8 matches. Lower card matches taking around 10 minutes a piece of showtime while the bigger name matches take upwards of 30 minutes. If you’re gonna put a tournament on PPV then realistically you’re looking at a 9/10 match card. With most matches lasting what? 6/7 minutes each? Let’s assume it’s a midcard star you’re trying to build. Surely you can’t expect to show off their real ability under those circumstances. This isn’t 1985 after all.
But why should timing even be an issue in the first place when you currently have 5 hours of prime time TV every week which could easily be used instead. Just look at Raw which broadcasts for 3 hours each week. Why have a whole PPV of 5/6 minute matches when you could just as easily break a tournament down into say 2 matches a night lasting 15 odd minutes each and spread it over a month and REALLY show off your superstar’s ability?
Fact is we live in an era where many people are beginning to value a superstar’s in ring ability over everything else. Back in the mid 90’s, the early days of the King of the ring PPV the WWE were able to get away with having an entire tournament on PPV since wrestling wasn’t exactly the main focus of the WWE (seriously). Fast forward to 2014 however and well you’re considered pretty WOAT if you’re not producing at least 3* star quality wrestling matches month after month in the eyes of many. You can try and argue that the winner looking good is the only thing that matters but that’s no easy feat when in ring ability is king and short quick matches count for very little.
All in all there really is no need to be hosting an 8 man tournament on PPV in 2014 simply because they don’t need to. In terms of pushing talent you have the MITB and the Rumble to push guys and in the long run it’s doubtful a tournament based PPV would actually do much to enhance any superstar significantly to prove worthwhile.
TheLoneShark Should WWE do an 8-man one night only elimination tournament on PPV in 2014?
Absolutely. In fact, with the dearth of stars on the roster truly ready to carry the company and take the torch from Cena and Orton, I’m a little surprised that the King Of The Ring wasn’t resurrected for June rather than moving Battleground – a PPV which did horrible numbers last year – into that slot.
The company is, whether they or their fans like to admit it or not, in the beginning of another transitional period and they need to start building stars for the future. Guys like Ziggler, Swagger and Del Rio are useful to have around in the Jericho role – guys who can take the title for short runs but are best served elevating others – but they don’t have any real stars on the rise. The KOTR tournament used to do exactly that, making stars of the likes of Austin, Helmsley, Rock and both Harts who got a rub just by being involved, regardless of whether or not they won.
From a business perspective, one night tournaments make money. They draw an audience. Why? Because nobody knows who is going to win, because you get to see eight stars battle it out and, in the latter days of the KOTR, for a prize – a shot at the WWE Title at Summerslam. KOTR should be Summerslam’s Royal Rumble, every year.
Even with the 2014 schedule set, it would make for an excellent addition to the WWE Network – something exclusive to draw in viewers with a real purpose and build on TV. An opportunity to take the guys who look like they could make it – Reigns, Rollins, Ambrose, Cesaro, Wyatt, Langston, Cody and Brodus Clay – and give them a chance to shine. They could even use it as an opportunity to use guys who don’t get a shot on TV often and those in NXT to pad out the tournament with qualifiers during the preceding weeks, which could draw interest to the B and C shows like Smackdown, Superstars and NXT, meaning it’s an all-round win.
An 8-man elimination tournament – call it King Of The Ring, give it any other name – should not only be scheduled for 2014, but an annual event that should be elevating stars to main events and title shots every time. Cena can’t carry the company forever, Orton has never proven capable of carrying the company, CM Punk talks about retirement every time his contract comes up and there are still question marks over Daniel Bryan. So who’s next? A tournament can create an instant star, a white hot talent with real momentum and crowd backing. A shot in the arm that the company is going to need very, very soon.
On a wider scale, having a regularly scheduled annual tournament takes pressure off of the creative team – as things stand, they’re trying to build stars for Wrestlemania, create stars for Wrestlemania and find the best way of utilising stars at Wrestlemania, which is a massive ask for them. They should be able to cycle their focus through the year. So why not use a tournament to make stars, the Survivor Series period to build stars and Wrestlemania season to showcase them. It’s an all-round win for the company, the fans and the guys on the roster.
So yes, the WWE should do a one night 8-man tournament on PPV in 2014. And 2015. And 2016. And every year thereafter. Because that’s what’s best for business.
No, WWE should not run an 8-man elimination tournament on PPV in 2014, for three main reasons.
First, as WWE has learned (which is why we don’t see tournament PPVs anymore), tournaments simply do not draw. People buy wrestling PPVs to see a specific match between main event talents that has been built up over time, not a myriad of unknown matches which are guaranteed to be lacking in quality, as the advancing superstar has to stay in condition for his next match of the night, and by the time the finals come around both talents will not be at their best. Loading the front of the bracket with top matches doesn’t work either, as then the PPV will be played backward in terms of attractive matches, creating a very odd-feeling pay-per-view.
Secondly, WWE just doesn’t have 8 guys that people care about. I’m not even sure it has 4 at any given time, mainly due to WWE’s “one-thing-at-a-time” booking style in which it can’t seem to focus on more than a single storyline. In the meantime all the other talented guys simply aren’t getting focused pushes, and thus lack the credibility to be an attractive element in an 8-man arrangement.
Lastly, what prize exists in the WWE which could titillate viewers enough to buy a PPV which will suffer from the weaknesses highlighted above? The WWE title? Ha, just take a look at 2012 to see how much the WWE values its top title in comparison to its top stars. Punk had the title and only main evented PPVs when he was fighting John Cena for it. All throughout the year Cena, and whichever heel was being built up to challenge him at the time, was main eventing PPVs over the WWE title. The WWE title only got respect in 2013 when Cena was injured and WWE had nothing else to build their shows around. Of course, as soon as he returned, he once again became the focus of the main event picture.
Despite what some may wish to believe, the titles have become nothing more than props. People pay to see a select few talents, and there aren't enough of these talents to justify a pay-per-view built around a tournament.
I could go on but there’s really nothing more that needs to be said. There’s no reason to run an 8-man elimination tournament on PPV, and several reasons not to.
Jupiter Jack Daniels
The Wrestling Classic and King Of The Ring are WWE’s past experiments with one night PPV tournaments. While The Wrestling Classic wasn’t a notable success and didn’t really spawn any next generation talents that weren’t already established, the King of The Ring, a tournament that randomly took place at live events in the 80s, went on to become a huge success, as well as something fans have been hoping would be revived. And 2014 would be the perfect time. So, yes, I do think WWE should have a 8 man, one night only elimination tournament on PPV in 2014.
I’m pretty sure the most obvious reason is the potential of a star breaking out, citing Owen Hart, Steve Austin, Triple H & Brock Lesnar as examples. But, my reasoning is quite different.
Now, while the potential of a breakout star is there, imagine the possibility of, for example, Night of Champions being an 8 man elimination tournament. And that tournament is full of World Champions. Depending on injuries & schedules, imagine the possibility of guys like the Undertaker, John Cena, Brock Lesnar, Batista, Randy Orton, The Rock, CM Punk & Daniel Bryan in a one night tournament. Not only would that be a fans dream but also a possible box office smash. The interest factor alone would be a major selling point, based on the possibility of a variety of dream matches. Would be too good to be true and likely won’t turn out like this at all.
But more importantly, the potential for something different from the past several years. Only 2-3 PPV’s have true meaning anymore and the rest just seem to be rematch heaven. The idea of a one night tournament presents a sense of unpredictability, among other things, as well as the potential to birth some interesting angles. For example, imagine 2 members of The Shield competing in the finals. That would be a perfect way to officially split them and take one, likely Roman Reigns, to the next level, regardless of a win or a loss, as well as make the other (likely Dean Ambrose) into a bonafide top heel, pending a win.
This is one of those situations where, in my opinion, the reward outweighs the risk because I don’t see a risk or a legitimate reason why WWE chooses not to do these tournaments. Maybe it’s because of Money In The Bank, which I feel is expendable, as it has lost all of it’s appeal or at least enough of it where it doesn’t require it’s on PPV setting. As a matter of fact, the same can be said for TLC, Elimination Chamber and Hell in A Cell, all PPV’s that are named and maintain a selling point based on 1 match. Why not compress those into other PPV’s, making way for a tournament-esque PPV that can, without a doubt, do more good than harm?
As I’ve said before, 2014 is the perfect time. Pretty stacked roster, with a lot of hungry, young talents who seem to just be there. Some are engaged in pretty interesting angles but those angles can be even furthered with the prospect of certain situations playing out in a tournament. And as for the rarely used guys, it can be a way to test them out and see if something is really there. And for us, the fans, it’s a helluva lot better than watching PPV rematches for 3 months. It’s the potential of a break from that, a possibility of seeing some good matchups and if WWE can pull It off well, a potential good business move. Because it is a business and while business isn’t really down, it doesn’t seem like it would be a bad idea to try something “different” and give the fans something “different”, just to see how it turns out.
And my guess is that it would turn out great, as there are various directions it could be taken, especially on the creative end. To me, it’s one of those situations where nothing can go wrong.
Spoiler for Judging Cards:
Seabs CGS - I really liked your setup of basically basing your debate entirely off counters and using your decimation of the opposing side's arguments to create your own argument. I don't think it'll work in every debate fyi but it worked with this topic and more importantly it worked outstandingly well against the debates your opponents turned in. The first point I thought was really great and it really destroyed your opponents' debates too when they used that argument because you countered it without even seeing it and did so in a way that easily trumped their arguments for the opposite side. Rest of your argument is strong and really convincing too. Bit iffy on your point about the importance of having great matches because this is still WWE and the Tyson Kidd's of the world still get minimal opportunities unlike the Khali's of the roster. But that didn't hurt your debate because of how strong the rest of it was. Great stuff.
TheLoneShark - This debate was good and I probably would have been higher on it if CGS hadn't ripped it to shreds with his debate. Especially his counter to needing a PPV Tournament to make a new star when they already have Rumble, MITB and Mania. You argue the need for new stars well but sadly it couldn't relate back to the need for a PPV Tournament. I didn't like the drawing power paragraph for two reasons. 1) you just stated that they draw money and didn't show that as a fact and 2) I'm pretty sure they've never really drawn well. I wish I had the time to get up all the old KOTR, etc buyrates/show ratings to destroy that argument but I don't. I don't even need to really because you failed to prove it yourself so it was just a statement with no evidence backing it up. A good debate that was ridiculed by a great debate.
CamillePunk - Same criticism of the drawing power argument here. You need to show that they don't draw rather than just stating it as apparent fact. It's not hard to find KOTR buyrates. They're even on wikipedia. If you had some buyrate evidence then your first paragraph would have been strong. 2nd paragraph I disagree with. People care about Bryan/Punk/Shield/Bray/Cesaro/Orton/Cody/Show/Rey/BROCK. It's not hard to find 4 or even 8 guys that the audience cares about. 3rd paragraph I was iffy on. You seemed to go off track into burying WWE for not letting Punk main event over Cena when he was champion but I didn't think you related it back to the topic. You could have but you didn't. I could easily bring all the Rumble buyrates to squash that argument too. Or recent MITB buyrates. Or just strong drawing shows main evented by the title. Decent debate that left too many holes to pick the debate apart.
Jupiter Jack Daniels - You're the 3rd person to slip up with just stating that something was/wasn't a success without proving it. HOW was KOTR a success? 3rd and 4th paragraphs were good and managed to mostly stay away from CGS' shark of a debate to stay alive for now. You lasted longer than the other 2 at least. I'd question the business sense of your all star tournament idea because you're blowing your load on a bunch of big drawing matches on a PPV with no brand value that could be saved for an occasion where they can pop a big buyrate just on their own without 2 or 3 other "dream matches" to pop the same buyrate just once. The creative argument was strong though. Opening line of the 5th paragraph and DAT SHARK CGS strikes again. You might not see a legit reason not to do it but he did and he made that line really hurt your debate. I suggest you read my MITB debate that I buried Tater with as to why MITB still has value as its own PPV. You slipped up there too. Same for the other gimmick PPVs which draw stronger than your Battleground PPVs. The PPV rematches point I thought was weak because it's really easy to still book PPV rematches with the same guys using this concept. Still a solid debate and better than TheLoneShark and CamillePunk's debates but still open to too many counter arguments.
One debate was not only the best stand alone debate but also the debate which crushed their opponents' debates to make them look like trash. Outstanding effort.
Winner - CGS
THE DARK ANDRE CGS:
This is a really strong debate. You made a great point about there already being too many gimmick pay per views on WWE’s schedule (although Jupiter Jack Daniels made a good argument to suggest that a tournament event could replace one of the garbage gimmick pay per views), while a pay per view tournament wouldn’t make much difference in a climate where WWE already has vehicles such as MITB and the Royal Rumble to put its rising talent over with. I absolutely adored the argument you made where WWE would be better off having a tournament on television where the matches would probably be given more time, seeing as great matches can help lots of wrestlers get over, not just the tournament winner. However, you should have pointed out that FAR MORE people would see these tournaments on tv than they would on ppv. The only strong criticism I’ll make is that you completely glossed over the business aspect of the debate and that allowed Jupiter Jack Daniels to trump you with his argument for a star studded one night only pay per view event. Other than that this was a really strong effort.
Your point about creating new stars was countered by CGS who pointed out that WWE already have many star gimmick pay per views (which WWE already fail to pull off correctly) and that they’re in a situation where they need to reduce these gimmick events. You could have countered him if you had stated that KOTR should take MITB’s place instead of Battleground, thus pointing out that there doesn’t need to be an increase in gimmick pay per views. Jupiter Jack Daniels managed this. He also pointed out that there’s a greater opportunity for WWE’s wrestlers to get themselves over in longer tv matches during a longer term tournament, so in order to counter him you need to give evidence in order to prove that “one night tournaments make money”, but you failed to do that. CamillePunk also made a stronger argument as to why people might not be tempted into buying a tournament pay per view, although your comments about intrigue hold merit.
I had several problems with your fourth paragraph. First of all, “it would make for an excellent addition to the WWE Network – something exclusive to draw in viewers with a real purpose and build on TV”. How would this be exclusive to the WWE network when all WWE pay per views will continue to be made available without a subscription? You previously said that a reason to have a tournament is because it’s (apparently) a proven draw, but you then wrote: “An opportunity to take the guys who look like they could make it – Reigns, Rollins, Ambrose, Cesaro, Wyatt, Langston, Cody and Brodus Clay”. I find it hard to believe that those guys would draw buys, not to mention that they would garner more exposure during a television tournament. Also: “They could even use it as an opportunity to use guys who don’t get a shot on TV often and those in NXT to pad out the tournament with qualifiers during the preceding weeks” kind of goes against the point of arguing for a ONE NIGHT ONLY tournament ON PAY PEW VIEW, which is what the debate is asking you to argue for or against.
Look, I do like what you’re arguing for in terms of creating new stars, but not once have you given me strong evidence to suggest why a tournament HAS to happen on ppv and not tv. The argument about a ppv tournament making it easier for the creative team to map out future plans does hold some merit, but nowhere near enough to make this a strong debate.
You made a good argument as to why WWE’s fan base might not order a pay per view with a one night tournament, pertaining to match quality, lopsided cards and a limit on the number of matches that can be hyped to sell the pay per view. However, if you’re going to come out with statements such as “tournaments simply do not draw” then PROVE IT PLEASE. “WWE just doesn’t have 8 guys that people care about” is a very borderline argument seeing as WWE’s full time roster is very sparse, yet they could easily bring in “Undertaker, John Cena, Brock Lesnar, Batista, Randy Orton, The Rock, CM Punk & Daniel Bryan” just as Jupiter Jack Daniels argued. You didn’t make a convincing argument to suggest that this wasn’t possible so he trumped you on that one. However, your point about a potential tournament lacking prestige holds some merit as you argued that even the WWE title doesn’t hold enough prestige for people to become invested in a tournament on pay per view, although the addition of the stars that debater D suggested would certainly make a wwe title ppv tournament victory far more worthwhile, so while I think that you’ve made some interesting points I’ve once again found flaws within your stance. With “there aren't enough of these talents to justify a pay-per-view built around a tournament” I have to again point out that Jupiter Jack Daniels convincingly argued otherwise. I also disagree with “there’s really nothing more that needs to be said” after having read CGS' entry. This debate started off well but gradually fell apart as your own self destruction gathered momentum with every passing comment.
Jupiter Jack Daniels:
This took a completely different route to every other debate in this match, arguing with greater effect than TheLoneShark, completely trumping CamillePunk and going toe to toe with CGS. Citing the names that you did for a night only tournament pay per view, you suggested “Not only would that be a fans dream but also a possible box office smash”. It’s hard to disagree and I’m assuming that your opponents feel the same way seeing as there wasn’t one counter against the possibility of such an event occurring. However, leave out statements such as “Would be too good to be true and likely won’t turn out like this at all” because it reads like you’re suggesting that an event like that would never happen.
I like your idea about the Shield clashing in a tournament, but when you look at that calibre of wrestling star you have to assume that they’re not put in a pay per view tournament to draw a large crowd, so in that case why can’t you have a tournament full of guys like that on television like CGS suggested? However, you found great success by suggesting that a series of shitty gimmick pay per views could be shifted in favour of a tournament pay per view, thus countering CGS' argument about the overabundance of WWE gimmick pay per views. Then you went back to talking about unused guys which, as already stated, CGS has made a great argument for these types being better off wrestling in tv tournaments…this is frustrating me now because your third and fifth paragraphs are brilliant and I feel that if you had delved further into the concept of a mega drawing star studded pay per view tournament then you would have won this easily, if you had made that your main consistent angle throughout your debate then you would have been untouchable. By trying to cover so many bases you’ve exposed yourself to counters. This is a strong debate that would have benefited from greater consistency.
This ended up being a close one between CGS and Jupiter Jack Daniels with the other two debaters falling off a cliff. I feel like Jupiter Jack Daniels had more potential to be a classic due to its third and fifth paragraphs, but in the end it was far too inconsistent and fell into the brilliant traps that were laid by CGS.
Jupiter Jack Daniels: ***1/2
CGS wins the vote
You started off good. You defined your answer and stated that the concept would be just another gimmick PPV while explaining that fans already want to see a decrease in gimmick PPV's. I liked your attempt at shutting down counter arguments as this seemed to be the basis of your debate. Your first attempt was good by showing WWE's start and stop pushes, and how the tourney probably wouldn't be beneficial in today's WWE especially considering they already have these type of elevation PPV's in RR and MITB. Your second counter argument was ok. While they did pull these PPV tourneys before, you made a solid point by explaning that short matches doesn't show off the person's ability. Your last counter argument was good because you provided a better alternative to the 8 person PPV tourney in which the wrestler's ability can be better displayed especially in this era where ring ability means so much now.
You jumped into the debate immediately by acknowledging that Cena can't be on top forever. You then went on to explain how the KOTR made Bret Hart, Austin, Rock and Triple H into the next stars of the company. Later on you would make this point again by mentioning how a tourney could create an instant star. You then went on to describe how this could benefit the WWE network, B and C shows by showing how qualifying matches can gain interest. You finished very strong with this line: "So why not use a tournament to make stars, the Survivor Series period to build stars and Wrestlemania season to showcase them. It’s an all-round win for the company, the fans and the guys on the roster."
Way too short. This was more like a post in the wrestling section. Your second point was ok. Highlighting the mid-card hell treatment that wrestlers get. Your 3rd point was highly questionable. Attempting to bury the WWE title. Meh. I'll just stop there. There's really nothing to give feedback on because you didn't attempt to go deeper and get some more detail in this.
Jupiter Jack Daniels
This debate took a unique approach by showing the greatest potential of the tourney when you have the biggest names in the company competiting which creates numerous dream match possibilites. Like you pointed out, that would definitely catch interest. You also did a good job explaining how these type of tourneys can create storylines in the future based on the opponents and outcome of these matches. Then you went into the diminishing returns of MITB, Hell in a Cell and Elimination Chamber, and how it's time to switch gears to an idea that can do more good than harm. Solid debate, unique stance, and straight to the point.
This comes down to CGS and Jupiter Jack Daniels for me. I choose CGS because he put forth a solid effort in attempting to take down counter arguments.
Winner via Unanimous Decision - CGS
Which was part of my six match STREAK which also included beating Seabs (followed by his lovely bitch fit ) before my friend Stevie decided not to be a man and I got lumped with the STREAK KILLER Zombo
Oh and i'm technically ahead of you in the rankings
Re: TDL XVII: ONE YEAR ANNIVERSARY SHOW - THE CARD
"You didn't beat me, I only beat myself" and "THAT'S ON FIG!!" >>>>>>>>>> all other catchphrases apart from "off to the DOJO YOU GO". EC needs a huge push to the top of the wrestling division, could be like the SCSA of tdl. Imagine the potential thread views