- Assuming this is Lane's debate I have the same criticisms that I've seemed to have for every one of your debates. Good foundation supplied from your ideas but not the depth or structure to them to give you a really good debate. I definitely thought you had the start of good points like the differences in organic crowd reactions and Cody excelling with a partner but you didn't use them well enough to really drive home why they are the deciding factor and proving that your statements are true. You bring up the point about crowd reaction but don't support it with any evidence to really strengthen your claim. Instead it reads more as opinion than fact. Opinions can easily be argued against, facts can't. The Cody being better as a tag worker argument was good but it did leave some holes open for countering such as opportunities that Cody's had as a singles guy and even as a babyface like he's been getting with Dustin. Your kinda contradict yourself at the end too by mentioning how Cody has got a big reaction recently as it left me thinking well if he can get a big reaction that soon into what is really his first breakout babyface run imagine what he could get with some more momentum and experience further up the card. You could have countered that by saying that Dolph has more experience in a singles role and is more ready NOW but you didn't. Ultimately your argument supporting Ziggler as your choice was far too weak.
The Fourth Wall
- This didn't really convince me that either deserved the push more than the other quite frankly. It felt at times like you might go somewhere good but then you either stopped or took a wrong turn. First two paragraphs I didn't really think offered much to your argument. The first one was basically a really long way of you saying your first line with the opening to other arguments that weren't built on past one sentence. Like the tag team success you introduced and didn't expand on. Lane countered that pretty well too for why Cody shouldn't be picked. Your 2nd paragraph felt like it could go somewhere good but ultimately didn't. You could have done something with Ziggler's failed big push and WWE not having the confidence needed for this role so they might be more willing to properly get behind pushing Cody as opposed to Ziggler. I thought you were unfairly harsh on Ziggler's title run too which basically got cut short due to Swagger not knowing his own strength more than anything Dolph did wrong. Then your own argument for not rushing Cody might be best said to me that they should push Ziggler now and Cody later. There's a lot of stuff that is basically just your opinion and is even written like that. "but I feel Rhodes' has a lot more natural intensity" and "I think he has the full package". Be more convincing with your wording. Make it sound like it's not just your opinion but everyone's opinion to the point of being undeniable fact. Your mic skills point was decent but was hurt by coming off as largely just your personal opinion which doesn't hold much strength in this context when you're arguing for one of them. The final point about the Orton match was much better because you started bringing in facts and evidence to back up your opinion and validate your argument. But it was too short and probably should've been the bulk of your debate rather than just a nice sub-point to end on. This was more like who you would choose rather than who VINCE should choose which is what the question basically was. Everyone seemed to miss that one actually. It wasn't who's better, it was who would be best for business being pushed as a top babyface.
- This was..... interesting. Essentially arguing for someone and then flipping your stance in literally the last sentence is a first. It's even more baffling considering STEVIE SWAG almost won Bodybag of the Year for doing something similar. You need to pick your stance, declare at is early as possible and then actually argue FOR your pick rather than.... whatever it was you did here. The language or style of writing isn't the issue here like it is in many lesser debates, it's the content of your debate that sucks. And the funny thing is you had a good debate arguing for Ziggler until your final line. I'm not a fan of the blabbing at the start which adds nothing to your debate and I'm not the only judge who dislikes this. Get straight into arguing your stance and much less time setting the context of the debate up. We're not strangers to the context. You really bury Cody during your debate which is neat if you're arguing against him but you're not so due to that final line it's just burying your own stance. Excluding the final line, the last 3 paragraphs were really good and would have won you the debate if you were arguing for Ziggler. Those 3 paragraphs were really good. But then you ruined your debate by changing your stance if you like and essentially making these 3 paragraphs shit because suddenly they buried your own stance. Make sure that you actually argue for YOUR stance rather than the opposite. You would have won but for the final line with the sudden flip of sides.
I don't like choosing a winner for this debate because neither deserved it. You'd probably have a decent debate I'd be happy handing a win to if you took the best bits of all 3 debates though. Giving my vote to The Fourth Wall as although his debate was far from perfect or even all that good, he seemed to try to come the closest to forming an effective argument. Oxi could have had bar that atrocious final line and Lane could had also had it with more depth to his argument.
Winner - The Fourth Wall
THE DARK ANDRE
Your first two paragraphs were weak and pointless.
Dolph got a huge pop when he came out to cash in on his money in the bank in front of a smarky crowd? Oh, nice one mate, beyond the realms of all possibility and all that! So let’s hear all of these other huge pops and see all of these other examples of Ziggler controlling the crowd, examples which can prove he’s a far better bet than Cody. Oh what, there isn’t any evidence? There aren’t any more examples? So what we’re left with is the notion that Ziggler once gained a huge pop in specialist circumstances? Well I never!
Your second paragraph continued in this same vein; “he connects more with the crowd than Cody Rhodes does”. Does he? Often times I’ll see Ziggler come out and nobody seems to give a fuck, while Cody has in recent times managed to build something of a rapport with the WWE audience, beginning with his moustache gimmick, building as a more stable connection during his feud with Sandow and now reaching new heights with his super over tag team with his brother. I’m not suggesting that one is more over than the other, but they seem about equal to me based on the past year of WWE programming. Both have gained decent reactions when booked well, both have enticed crickets when WWE has left them in the wilderness. The claim that you’re making needs far more evidence to support it, whether that be via video or via merchandise sales, especially when you make claims such as “He is way more popular than Rhodes and has the potential to be a top player in the WWE more so than Cody Rhodes.” Your entire debate comes off like a mark’s opinion rather a strong argument backed by facts.
I also laughed when you argued that Cody would suffer if his tag team was split up. First of all, NO GREAT SINGLES WRESTLER HAS EVER EMERGED FROM A BROKEN UP TAG TEAM, AMIRITE? Second of all, you make it sound like Cody can’t work a singles match with “He hits his spots and then lets his partner take over to fill the gap. That gap cant be filled with him as a singles wrestler” which is not true seeing as he has worked good singles matches in the past. A far more carefully worded argument would have suggested that Cody would be better off staying in his tag team FOR NOW, but would be a good bet in the future, whereas Ziggler is ready NOW. I also had a big problem with this:
“The only time people have cared for Cody in a baby face role as a singles competitor was when his career was on the line against Randy Orton.”
First of all, the bloke has mostly worked as a heel during his WWE career and only just turned face six months ago, so him only gaining a strong sympathetic reaction just recently is more on the booking than anything else. Again:
“People had something to emotionally attach to because that was the only way he could get over as a face unlike Ziggler who gets a instantaneous reaction”
Saying that was the only way he could get over as a face is a tad hypocritical seeing as Ziggler was a failed heel who had a smark following before WWE booked him in a double turn with Del Rio who viciously attacked his previously concussed head, a sure fire tactic to gain baby face sympathy. So what is it? Both guys are shit and need help from booking, or are both guys actually capable of connecting with an audience and that’s just wrestling booking in a nutshell within those two scenarios?
Your “effort” was weaker than an AlexHumph erection in the playboy mansion and probably just as short as well. T’was a garbage debate written by what seemed to be a severe mark with a tendency to spew nonsense. OFF TO THE DOJO YOU GO.
The Fourth Wall:
This debate starts well by giving fair credit to both guys and eradicating the possible notion that we might have another mong on our hands. However, you even admitted yourself that Cody is doing well in a tag team, so what about his current scenario suggests that he’s ready for singles stardom that would break up his current team? Then you acknowledge that while it’s not his fault, Ziggler has lost momentum at a time that Cody is GAINING momentum, therefore making Rhodes the safer bet. That was a good argument. However, I don’t think it’s fair to suggest that Ziggler’s mediocre reign should count against him considering the circumstances.
“Rhodes has been in and out of pushes for years now, and has just never had the chance at claiming the Gold” suggests that he isn’t ready to become one of Vince McMahon’s top babyfaces, seeing as he hasn’t even been tested in the main event like Ziggler has. You could have saved that argument by suggesting that Rhodes doesn’t carry the baggage of past failures, unlike Ziggler who has essentially been brandished a joke/jobber world champion by the WWE, a stigma which is hard to shake off. While I’m inclined to agree with you about Cody being better on the mic you didn’t really give any strong examples or make a clever argument in order to highlight how in WWE good mic work is likely to take you a lot further than in ring work which is Ziggler’s main asset. I’m also not going to give you big credit for highlighting the sympathy gained from Cody’s great performance against Randy Orton in his "retirement match", just like I said to Lane with his Ziggler cash in example. Every dog has his day, as the saying goes. This debate had some good ideas but never really elaborated on them, while the debater shot himself in the foot with some of his comments. More DEPTH and EVIDENCE next time please.
First of all I need to point out that this debate was about who Vince should pick as ONE OF his faces of the company, not as "a perfect choice for the ‘face of the company’". Therefore Vinnny Mac daddy wouldn't necessarily have to "push one of these two guys to the moon, and over John Cena and Randy Orton". ONE OF meaning that Cody or Ziggler could be pushed to the same level as Cena or Orton, or even just below them. Regardless, nowhere does the topic suggest that either man would be THE face of the company.
After that odd start you took a great step forward by suggesting that WWE are more interested in personalities than in ring work, therefore the wrestler with the stronger and more definable character would be a safer bet. By showing that Cody doesn’t have a definable and well worked character whereas Dolph does you instantly established that Dolph has more potential RIGHT NOW, although I disagree that this character is “particularly unique”, especially within recent WWE history. A minor quibble though. However, as much as this proves that Ziggler is in a stronger position RIGHT NOW I must point out that Cody showed elements of good character work with his undashing character from 2011, while he also showed great character work in his “win or you’re fired” Raw match against Orton. Thankfully you didn’t fall into the pit and suggest that Cody’s character work is shit, just that he didn't have one, therefore the creative team haven't put him in a place where he's ready to be pushed as one of the faces of the company.
While it’s not a perfect measuring stick in regards to popularity the twitter stats do suggest that Dolph is more popular than Cody. It’s at least some evidence to back up an argument circling around which wrestler is more popular and therefore has the potential to make the WWE more money. So while I believe that you could have gone into greater detail in order to expand upon what these stats potentially mean in terms of money I will at least give you credit finding some evidence to support the basic argument, which is something that Lane and The Fourth Wall failed to do.
…but then you finished with this:
“But Ziggler’s one bad concussion away from retiring so the answer is Cody Rhodes.”
As funny as that was, if you’re going to do a flip flop at the end then you need to make it clear if you’re being sarcastic or not! I know that there are rumours about Ziggler and his concussions, but by being so vague your comment just undermined the rest of your debate which was solid…and I thought I had an obvious winner. FOR FUCKS SAKE!
Lane's was shite, enough said about that disaster. The Fourth Wall dreams of being mediocre on a good day, but it was at least…there. Meanwhile, Oxi had an odd start which suggested a lack of reading comprehension, but after that it seemed like the clear winner...until the final sentence which seemed like an autistic kid pretending to be DDMac for a weekend.
Seabs, can I just murder all three of them instead of picking a winner?
The Fourth Wall: *
wins my vote despite trying to be a funny/clever cunt and failing miserably. It’s lucky for you that your opponents were probably the same people who awarded CGS a first in accounting…
Good job identifying your stance right from the opening, although the sentence is phrased kind of awkwardly.
I like the recall of the reaction for Ziggler's cash-in on Del Rio being one of the bigger pops in recent memory. As a suggestion, link the video here as a footnote - give the judge the cash-in and reaction right there, and let the roar of the crowd do the talking. It's great if the judge remembers it, but allowing him or her to re-LIVE it only strengthens your statement.
There are a couple grammatical or spelling issues throughout, which don't really cost you any 'marks', because your point is still clear. However, eliminating those and turning in a good clean product will only enhance the opinion of it in a judges' eyes. (Examples: "The crowd on the edge of their seat" should be "The crowd WAS on the edge..., "weather" instead of "whether")
The second paragraph is kind of weak. I mean, you're stating your opinion but it's just that - an opinion. Some facts to back it up (ie: merchandise sales figures, if WWE has any, Twitter followers, videos of Cody coming out to no reaction, ANYTHING) would make it much more convincing than "Ziggler is way more popular and people demand to see him". SHOW THAT.
The final paragraph showing Cody's career has been successful as a sort of "tag specialist" is good, especially when contrasted with the majority of Dolph's career as a singles guy. I would've gone a little further and try to say that Dolph basically became a face in spite of his role as a heel due to fan appreciation, so an arrogant face role might be an even better fit for him.
Overall, the debate is okayyyy, but there are several areas for improvement - most importantly in the second paragraph, and giving some facts or proof to back up your stance.
The Fourth Wall
As with Lane, good job immediately identifying your pick.
The opening paragraph doesn't really separate Rhodes from Ziggler in terms of ability, other than the vague notion that he went out and "gave it his all" every night. This is immediately after you give Ziggler props for selling his ass off. Then you hype up his tag abilities. Nothing here really furthers your argument, which is why it's somewhat weak.
The second paragraph makes a little more sense, pointing out Cody's rise and Ziggler's presumed fall down the card. I REALLY like your acknowledgement that this isn't really in the control of the wrestler's as that's an easy counterpoint that you at least addressed. If unaddressed, I would've snarkily said "but it's not in their control". You prevented that.
I LOVED the part about Ziggler's cash-in, as that was what gripped me the most in Lane's debate. This portion of your debate basically says, "yeah, that was a great cash-in, but what happened after that?"
I like the opening of Paragraph 3, further burying Ziggler's push to the title as not being the "wisest option" and saying it was "rushed". The comment about finding a solid character isn't all that helpful, as couldn't that be said about ANYONE on the midcard? And if Ziggler already has a solid character (as the Show-Off), might that even strengthen the argument for him instead? Not a major point against, but just something to keep in mind.
The mic skills opening isn't the strongest. It's difficult when you're giving props to both guys and then the reason you choose one is "I feel someone does x better". Of course you do, that's why you picked him. You need to show WHY it's better one way than the other. Can you give examples on how it's more effective to a large audience? If your argument is "I like how this guy talks more than that guy", it doesn't carry much weight.
When discussing the match with Orton where the crowd was hot throughout, why not add a footnote with the link there. I made a similar criticism in Debate A. I mean, if I'm watching that clip for 10 minutes right now and coming back to review, I'm going to be even more in support of this statement.
The conclusion is good, and just rounded out the structure of the debate.
Overall, a good job. There were some areas that needed some kind of factual or video support, but a well-structured, well-written debate that was a pleasure to read.
I'm not terribly enthusiastic about the opening to this debate. Also, burying both guys right from the get go (in your second paragraph) as an imperfect fit will not support the guy you do choose, whenever you do choose him.
At the halfway point, we're still in this little rut of stating the obvious. Wrestling ability is not the main factor for superstars. The face of the company is entertaining and popular. Okay, great.
A breakdown of the characters is solid - I enjoyed the writing style here and how you went about it, and shows some support for Ziggler. Finally, we're getting somewhere in terms of an opinion! Followed up with the next paragraph's opening line "the lack of a true character essentially proves that Cody isn't a better choice", I like it, finally establishing a strong opinion. It may have took 3/4 of the debate to get here, but this is a nice development.
The Twitter numbers are nice, and is a nice reference point to gauge some aspect of popularity. As the only one who attempted to bring in some facts, I commend you. So you've built up Dolph reasonably enough (using half of the space in your debate to do so, essentially), and we head to your conclusion.
A nice, quick little recap of your selection of Dol--- Wait. WHAT?! I'm utterly confounded by the closing line. If this was going to be where you were going with the debate, why build up Dolph at all? Why not hide the negatives that surround Cody and give a couple positives? Why not present a debate that explains "hey Dolph has had five documented concussions, and here is medical research on how concussions are terrible for athletes and his career is pretty much dead"? You have one line in this entire piece that supports Cody, and it simply reads that Ziggler is one bad concussion from retiring so Cody, by default, I guess. Not a good look. Memorable, but for the wrong reasons.
The winner of this debate, for my money, is clearly The Fourth Wall. Lane was too sparse in terms of facts and argument. Oxi shot itself in the foot by taking too long to start, and then concluding in COMPLETE OPPOSITION to everything it set out beforehand. The Fourth Wall's was solid, well-written, and open to only minor counters. The clear best effort of the three.