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post #61 of 117 (permalink) Old 01-20-2014, 02:08 PM
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Re: TDL XI: MANY A PRINCE, BUT ONLY ONE A KING - THE RESULTS

Just to be clear, you don't need to reach the word count to put together a top notch debate. The reason I as a judge usually advise people to write more, is that most of the shorter debates I've read make very little arguments at all and rely too much on descriptive writing, with a minor argument found in between. If someone wrote 650 words with a strong structure and supporting arguments then they'd have a chance, but obviously when you're debating better opponents it can be harder to excel whilst saying less.

As for conclusions, I do think they're very important. It can be 50 words or 150 depending on your preference, but it does need to end the debate on a strong note. It should be a collection of your arguments in a succinct manner, argued passionately to leave the judge fully absorbed by your argument. When people just write a vague couple of lines to conclude their debate, I can't tell you how disheartening it can be, especially as by doing that it sometimes means a debate starts well but ends unsatisfactorily. Again, it is possible to have a brief conclusion written well and able to say a lot in a short amount of time, but more often than not the shorter conclusions I've read don't do this and it's a key area where one debate can outclass the other.
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post #62 of 117 (permalink) Old 01-20-2014, 02:11 PM
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Re: TDL XI: MANY A PRINCE, BUT ONLY ONE A KING - THE RESULTS

Ermmmmmm...I've just noticed that Hag was given two decisions (from Seabs and TLK) in his match, yet Awshit was awarded the win via split decision. Awkward...



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post #63 of 117 (permalink) Old 01-20-2014, 02:13 PM
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Re: TDL XI: MANY A PRINCE, BUT ONLY ONE A KING - THE RESULTS

Quote:
Originally Posted by WOOLCOCK View Post
Don't get me wrong, overall the standard across these eleven shows has been super and a few people have really elevated themselves primarily through TDL. It can just be frustrating when a select few seemingly refuse to take on board/listen to the feedback and then submit the same entry which gets the same critique. It does nobody any favours truthfully.
Judging feedback in the soccerball/footer division is excellent. For me though I've stagnated because I can't apply the feedback into my content without feeling dissatisfied with it. I know you'd not be referring to me but I feel it is something I've needed to get off my chest and vent about. I've had a consistent run of below mediocrity and instead of applying criticism, I've only improved my writing style and presentation instead of putting in substance and conviction. Not sure if others have the same issues but eventually I'll find the best possible formula. I'll be looking to break my mental barrier for the upcoming debate. Whether it'll work or not, worth the risk and try something.
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post #64 of 117 (permalink) Old 01-20-2014, 02:13 PM
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Re: TDL XI: MANY A PRINCE, BUT ONLY ONE A KING - THE RESULTS

@ Andre

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg's comments regarding Hag's debate
As is stands, the structure and effort of AwShit, despite its flaws, is still the frontrunner.
I'm assuming TLK did vote for AwShit, but it was incorrectly entered on the scorecard as a vote for Hag.
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post #65 of 117 (permalink) Old 01-20-2014, 02:19 PM
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Re: TDL XI: MANY A PRINCE, BUT ONLY ONE A KING - THE RESULTS

As I read Woolcock's reply about the botched name entry I saw CGS' name appear in the "Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread" box. How appropriate.



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post #66 of 117 (permalink) Old 01-20-2014, 02:20 PM
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Re: TDL XI: MANY A PRINCE, BUT ONLY ONE A KING - THE RESULTS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Desecrated View Post
Judging feedback in the soccerball/footer division is excellent. For me though I've stagnated because I can't apply the feedback into my content without feeling dissatisfied with it. I know you'd not be referring to me but I feel it is something I've needed to get off my chest and vent about. I've had a consistent run of below mediocrity and instead of applying criticism, I've only improved my writing style and presentation instead of putting in substance and conviction. Not sure if others have the same issues but eventually I'll find the best possible formula. I'll be looking to break my mental barrier for the upcoming debate. Whether it'll work or not, worth the risk and try something.
Writing style does go a long way tbf. At the end of the day, debating is about making a persuasive case for your argument so improving your language and style to resonate more naturally with a judge is commendable and a step forward. With regard to substance, truthfully I think that can only be achieved by reading debates from the likes of Andre, Rush and BULK which have won to get an understanding for how they introduce and present their arguments. Generally with the sports debates, at least from my experience, plenty of people introduce promising arguments, but a lot fail to elaborate and expand on that argument. It becomes more a case of stating something, but not taking the measures to prove it.

If you read debates from some of the more successful sports debaters, you'll see the bulk of their debates centres around their argument, with only a bit of descriptive writing/definition used at the start. Less successful debates for me have waffled on too much and spent more time 'setting the stage' than actually arguing the question. For me, a typical paragraph can have an intro to outline the stance, but the rest of it should then be developing your argument. Obviously re-reading your debate back and perhaps amending the closing line to improve the flow and segue between paragraphs can further improve a debate, but that would be my main critique for the majority of the sports debates I've judged. Arguments are made, but very few bar the successful debaters have outlined their argument substantially to get my approval.
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post #67 of 117 (permalink) Old 01-20-2014, 02:32 PM Thread Starter
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Re: TDL XI: MANY A PRINCE, BUT ONLY ONE A KING - THE RESULTS

AwShit via Split Decision is correct. I just edited the wrong name into TLK's vote. I was admittedly rushing typing this up as I'm in the middle of Exams Period right now so if there are errors then just let me know and I'll fix them.

Re: word count, all the top debaters will say their initial drafts go over the word limit. This isn't a coincidence. The more content you have the more arguments and depth to your arguments you're likely to have. Of course it's possible you just waste 800 words rambling but even if you're rambling there's more chance of producing something worthwhile in 800 words of rambling than 400 words of rambling. I was considering raising the minimum word count to 600 for this show to encourage people to write more which should improve their debates but I'll leave it for now and see who acts on their feedback. I said in a lot of the undercard debates that next time they should aim to write at least 600 words and have at least 2 or 3 different reasons for their stance that they expand on. It won't produce a great debate by itself but it'll definitely lower the risk of producing a DUD.

I tell people in my feedback a lot to read the debates at the top of the card for inspiration too. Not too sure some debaters do this tbh. You'll almost surely not have a DUD if you try and base your debate structure off them debates.

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post #68 of 117 (permalink) Old 01-20-2014, 02:39 PM
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Re: TDL XI: MANY A PRINCE, BUT ONLY ONE A KING - THE RESULTS

Klunderbunker, I see you viewing this thread. Take note of Seabs' last post



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post #69 of 117 (permalink) Old 01-20-2014, 02:54 PM
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Re: TDL XI: MANY A PRINCE, BUT ONLY ONE A KING - THE RESULTS

He's a lazy fuckin' debater!




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post #70 of 117 (permalink) Old 01-20-2014, 05:40 PM
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Re: TDL XI: MANY A PRINCE, BUT ONLY ONE A KING - THE RESULTS

I think my biggest regret for the NFL debate was deleting my opening sentence which was pretty much me simply answering the question. damn those 8 words that I needed elsewhere. 3



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