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post #11 of 117 (permalink) Old 01-19-2014, 11:30 AM
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Re: TDL XI: MANY A PRINCE, BUT ONLY ONE A KING - THE RESULTS

LOL at TLK not knowing that Hogan /Andre also occurred at Mania IV.

Just a couple points:

TLK - "Right away, I see an option for a counterargument - Hogan may have been huge and paved the way, but what about Austin's peak years? WWF w/Austin on top ended up overtaking WCW w/Hogan on top. It has been documented that Austin is the highest draw of all time during his peak years."

...but that was the point. Hogan allowed Austin to get into that position due to his own impact in WCW, therefore he was greatly responsible for Austin's impact as well as his own, thus having a greater impact. I'm not sure how I could have made that clearer throughout the debate?

Seabs - "I don't think you were holding Austin not being able to do what Hogan did in WCW against him but it sounded a touch like it which obviously isn't a fair comparison due to opportunities, context and points in each career"

Actually I WAS holding it against Austin. The debate asked "Who had the greater impact on professional wrestling", not "Who had the greater impact on professional wrestling based on fair opportunities". It's a fact that Hogan had a greater impact on WCW than Austin ever did.

Mac's debate was good, although I felt it focused far too much on just WWF/WWE and Vince McMahon rather than having a broad perspective of how both men affected "professional wrestling", which is what the debate concerned more than just WWE. I also felt as if the fact that I credited Hogan for both his and Austin's success was overlooked a bit, based on feedback. Especially seeing as Mac was given credit for suggesting that Hogan's influence on the careers of people like Sid and Luger was a good thing. Oh well, opinions and all that.



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post #12 of 117 (permalink) Old 01-19-2014, 11:32 AM
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Re: TDL XI: MANY A PRINCE, BUT ONLY ONE A KING - THE RESULTS

Aha, so that's how you win multi-man matches, half-arse it two hours before the deadline.

Also, fuck me at Mac's debate - probably the best I've read since TDL started again.

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post #13 of 117 (permalink) Old 01-19-2014, 11:33 AM
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Re: TDL XI: MANY A PRINCE, BUT ONLY ONE A KING - THE RESULTS

It did? that didn't affect the outcome at least





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post #14 of 117 (permalink) Old 01-19-2014, 11:35 AM
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Re: TDL XI: MANY A PRINCE, BUT ONLY ONE A KING - THE RESULTS

Nah, I wasn't suggesting it did, otherwise I would have put it under "just a couple points"



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post #15 of 117 (permalink) Old 01-19-2014, 11:36 AM
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Re: TDL XI: MANY A PRINCE, BUT ONLY ONE A KING - THE RESULTS

Quote:
Originally Posted by ANDRE
Mac's debate was good, although I felt it focused far too much on just WWF/WWE and Vince McMahon rather than having a broad perspective of how both men affected "professional wrestling", which is what the debate concerned more than just WWE. I also felt as if the fact that I credited Hogan for both his and Austin's success was overlooked a bit, based on feedback. Especially seeing as Mac was given credit for suggesting that Hogan's influence on the careers of people like Sid and Luger was a good thing.
Not suggesting that Hogan's influence on Sid and Luger is a good thing... just that it's a thing. Impact. Whether it worked out for the positive or negative is irrelevant. Hogan's reach and formula was the point.

The WWF/E is professional wrestling. Or at least it has been since the late 80s through this moment right now, with hardly two years of being under WCW. There should be no focus on anything else if there doesn't have to be.

imo.

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post #16 of 117 (permalink) Old 01-19-2014, 11:40 AM
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Re: TDL XI: MANY A PRINCE, BUT ONLY ONE A KING - THE RESULTS

Guess we need a TIEBREAKER .





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post #17 of 117 (permalink) Old 01-19-2014, 11:41 AM
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Re: TDL XI: MANY A PRINCE, BUT ONLY ONE A KING - THE RESULTS

...and that's where the word "greatest" comes into play. The debate didn't ask who had the largest impact (which could then be construed as positive or negative) but the "greatest" impact, being "large and impressive".

Of course the question should have a fair share of focus on WCW seeing as the company was big deal in the 90's. Otherwise the question should state "WWWF/WWF/WWE" and not "professional wrestling".




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post #18 of 117 (permalink) Old 01-19-2014, 11:46 AM
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Re: TDL XI: MANY A PRINCE, BUT ONLY ONE A KING - THE RESULTS

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Originally Posted by THE DARK ANDRE View Post
...and that's where the word "greatest" comes into play. The debate didn't ask who had the largest impact (which could then be construed as positive or negative) but the "greatest" impact, being "large and impressive".
"Impressive" is relative. I find influence to be impressive, positive or negative.

Quote:
Of course the question should have a fair share of focus on WCW seeing as the company was big deal in the 90's. Otherwise the question should state "WWWF/WWF?WWE" and not "professional wrestling".
WCW was a big deal in the 90s... and that's probably giving too much credit quite frankly.

I'm not giving "fair share of focus" to a company with a hot run the same as a company with a DECADE-long run.

It's not proportional.

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post #19 of 117 (permalink) Old 01-19-2014, 12:01 PM
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Re: TDL XI: MANY A PRINCE, BUT ONLY ONE A KING - THE RESULTS

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Originally Posted by DDMac View Post
"Impressive" is relative. I find influence to be impressive, positive or negative.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/greatest

Greatest

- highest in quality
- of high or superior quality or performance

Hogan influencing Austin to become the top draw in wrestling is far more impressive and a greater indicator of quality than Hogan influencing guys like Luger and Sid. Just sayin'...

It's not that I mind the judges giving you credit, I just felt like I didn't get ENOUGH for what I did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DDMac View Post
WCW was a big deal in the 90s... and that's probably giving too much credit quite frankly.

I'm not giving "fair share of focus" to a company with a hot run the same as a company with a DECADE-long run.

It's not proportional.
It was the number one company for a while, a company that changed the industry and was a strong competitor against the WWF until the end of the nineties. To dismiss the company when it was a big player in the only decade that Austin and Hogan were BOTH essentially ever present within the industry is odd.

At the end of the day I don't mind that you won, but the debate did concern "professional wrestling" and not just Vince McMahon and his company.



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post #20 of 117 (permalink) Old 01-19-2014, 12:17 PM
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Re: TDL XI: MANY A PRINCE, BUT ONLY ONE A KING - THE RESULTS

Quote:
Originally Posted by THE DARK ANDRE View Post
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/greatest

Greatest

- highest in quality
- of high or superior quality or performance

Hogan influencing Austin to become the top draw in wrestling is far more impressive and a greater indicator of quality than Hogan influencing guys like Luger and Sid. Just sayin'...
It's a greater indicator than influencing guys like Luger and Sid, but it's not about influencing a couple of guys. It's about changing an ideal. It's about establishing a mindset. Hogan's influence over Austin (which I'm still not entirely convinced of) changed things for a couple of years. His WWF formula changed EVERYTHING... and IT'S STILL AROUND. Austin's not. His influence is not. WCW IS NOT. Hogan's influence over the biggest professional wrestling company of the last few DECADES is of the highest quality of influence, His influence over the 'E is of superior quality to every other superstar in history.

Quote:
It's not that I mind the judges giving you credit, I just felt like I didn't get ENOUGH for what I did.
ok


Quote:
It was the number one company for a while, a company that changed the industry and was a strong competitor against the WWF until the end of the nineties. To dismiss the company when it was a big player in the only decade that Austin and Hogan were BOTH essentially ever present within the industry is odd.
Grand scheme of things, much like Austin, WCW didn't change anything. It was cool while it lasted, and then everything returned to the status quo.

Quote:
At the end of the day I don't mind that you won, but the debate did concern "professional wrestling" and not just Vince McMahon and his company.
McMahon and his company are pro wrestling in North America. If we want to talk Japan, I guess that's fine, but as far as WCW and anything else that pales in comparison to professional wrestling for the last twenty some odd years when compared to the 'E, It's a blip... an anomaly.

Nice memories. I love them all, but what's it mean in the long term?? Not long term as in a couple of years - long term for decades?? I'm just saying.

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