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post #11 of 41 (permalink) Old 05-29-2013, 04:19 PM
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Re: Was the Ultimate Warrior scheduled to win the WWF title in 1996?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShowStopper '97 View Post
Doesn't make any sense to have that build up of HBKs first title win just to lose it in 3 months. Also, in HBK's book he said that Vince told him he was going to have a long title run. And back then, the standard world title run was 5 months. Wouldn't have made sense to have him lose it in almost half that time, especially when they were trying to make a new star. Plus, it's not like Warrior's return overtook WCW in the ratings.
I agree that it wouldn't have been the smartest thing, even from a match quality standpoint alone.

However, Vince telling Shawn anything means nothing, because Vince has been known to lie and pull off last minute bullshit (not last minute to him, mind you).

I Googled this, and it looks like my guess was right, as far as the Warrior defending title against Vader thing, being for a house show program:


Quote:
I bought the Self Destruction of the Ultimate Warrior DVD, and when they were showing clips from 1996 when he returned, they showed the front of a WWF House Show program in 1996 that was made ahead of time. It said WWF Championship Match and had the Warrior listed as chamption.
Quote:
Every once in a while this question gets asked. I don't think there's a clear answer to it, but I believe it has a strong possibility of being true.

There were some advertisements floating around back then with Warrior listed as the WWF champion.

Also, in Kevin Nash's shoot interview, he says that Vince wanted him to put over the Ultimate Warrior on Raw. Sounds to me like Vince was trying boost the Warrior's profile and ready him for the title.
Another possibility is that it had been planned later on in the summer or the year. Warrior missing shows has nothing to do with it, so I don't know why the timeline has to be confined to just that time period.

I mean it's common sense. If they're putting up with his bullshit, and spending a ton of money on him (I remember Warrior got $1 million for simply a one month appearance in WCW...so you could imagine what the WWE was paying for him), that they'd want him to be the face of the company. I'm sure that was in their plans.

I think it's possible that Vince had the plan of Vader winning the title, and then Warrior and Vader duking it out, as battle of the beasts. It makes sense, as Vader was really popular and over in WCW, and Warrior is Warrior.

I've also long had the theory that a large part of Shawn's problems with Vader was because he viewed him as a threat. Understandably so. He and everyone knows Vince's love and obsession with big guys. Here's this big guy coming over, who was hugely over and popular in WCW....I believe that he never had a chance with Michaels, even if he weren't stiff and all of that.

Not that I minded, because Vader never did it for me, anyway. I was annoyed with his push. Especially after the Diesel reign, although Vader is a much more capable worker.

Basically, I think that Vince would have tried anything in 1996, with his panic over WCW, even if they weren't longly-held plans beforehand. Although I do think that he had big plans for Warrior, or else he wouldn't have even gone down that road in the first place.

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post #12 of 41 (permalink) Old 05-29-2013, 04:26 PM
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Re: Was the Ultimate Warrior scheduled to win the WWF title in 1996?

I think that this post is dead on the money:
Quote:
I think the original plan (involving Warrior) was something like this:

- Warrior involved in 6-Man Tag team match at IYH
- HBK drops the belt to Vader at SummerSlam
- Warrior to face Bulldog at SummerSlam
- Warrior wins belt from Vader at Survivor Series

However, once Warrior left I think the plans changed to:

- Sid replaces Warrior in 6-man tag and Bulldog match at Summerslam
- HBK drops belt to Vader at SummerSlam (but was changed to Survivor Series)
- Vader drops belt back to HBK at Rumble
- Bret wins title from HBK at WrestleMania

But once HBK's dislike for Vader came or whatever, it became what it was.

This is what seems like possible scenarios based off of what i read and what was happening in the WWF in 1996.
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post #13 of 41 (permalink) Old 05-29-2013, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by LilOlMe View Post
^Could he have won the title at In Your House International Incident in July, and then defended it against Vader in late July on a house show run?
Naw because the 6 man tag had already been announced on the June 24 episode of RAW. It wasn't announced until July 8 that Warrior was suspended and they introduced Sid at the end of the show.

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post #14 of 41 (permalink) Old 05-29-2013, 04:31 PM
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Re: Was the Ultimate Warrior scheduled to win the WWF title in 1996?

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Originally Posted by LilOlMe View Post
I agree that it wouldn't have been the smartest thing, even from a match quality standpoint alone.

However, Vince telling Shawn anything means nothing, because Vince has been known to lie and pull off last minute bullshit (not last minute to him, mind you).

I Googled this, and it looks like my guess was right, as far as the Warrior defending title against Vader thing, being for a house show program:





Another possibility is that it had been planned later on in the summer or the year. Warrior missing shows has nothing to do with it, so I don't know why the timeline has to be confined to just that time period.

I mean it's common sense. If they're putting up with his bullshit, and spending a ton of money on him (I remember Warrior got $1 million for a simply a one month appearance in WCW...so you could imagine what the WWE was paying for him), that they'd want him to be the face of the company. I'm sure that was in their plans.

I think it's possible that Vince had the plan of Vader winning the title, and then Warrior and Vader duking it out, as battle of the beasts. It makes sense, as Vader was really popular and over in WCW, and Warrior is Warrior.

I've also long had the theory that a large part of Shawn's problems with Vader was because he viewed him as a threat. Understandably so. He and everyone knows Vince's love and obsession with big guys. Here's this big guy coming over, who was hugely over and popular in WCW....I believe that he never had a chance with Michaels, even if he weren't stiff and all of that.

Not that I minded, because Vader never did it for me, anyway.

I don't buy much of that. They spent the first 3-4 months of the year building to a new guy winning the title for the first time, and then they're going to have him drop it 2-3 months later? Even for Vince, that is insanely stupid.

Not to mention, Shawn supposedly had all of this power and was really close to Vince, right? Well, if that's the case there is no way he's going to have a short couple month title reign as the first title run of his career.

Also, Warrior didn't even help them put a dent in WCW's ratings. If Warrior turned out to be a huge draw in '96, then sure, I think it would have been a possibility that he at some point could win the title sometime in the fall or winter of 1996. But he wasn't the draw they were hoping he would be and he wasn't exactly a great worker, so there was little to no reason to put the belt on him. I also sincerely doubt Vince was paying Warrior anything even close to what WCW paid him later on. Vince didn't have anywhere near that amount of money, especially for a guy who they had no idea what they were going to get out of and how long he would be around for.

They brought him back to pop a rating (which he didn't do) and for nostalgia sake and it predictably blew up in their faces. Probably didn't do much for Warrior's mindset that the belt wasn't immediately put on him upon his return. I don't think Vince even thought about puting the belt on Warrior until he proved that he can work a certain amount of time without having a no-show, or pulling some kind of crap. And, of course, he couldn't do it.


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post #15 of 41 (permalink) Old 05-29-2013, 05:44 PM
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Re: Was the Ultimate Warrior scheduled to win the WWF title in 1996?

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Originally Posted by ShowStopper '97 View Post
I don't buy much of that. They spent the first 3-4 months of the year building to a new guy winning the title for the first time, and then they're going to have him drop it 2-3 months later? Even for Vince, that is insanely stupid.

Not to mention, Shawn supposedly had all of this power and was really close to Vince, right? Well, if that's the case there is no way he's going to have a short couple month title reign as the first title run of his career.

Also, Warrior didn't even help them put a dent in WCW's ratings. If Warrior turned out to be a huge draw in '96, then sure, I think it would have been a possibility that he at some point could win the title sometime in the fall or winter of 1996. But he wasn't the draw they were hoping he would be and he wasn't exactly a great worker, so there was little to no reason to put the belt on him. I also sincerely doubt Vince was paying Warrior anything even close to what WCW paid him later on. Vince didn't have anywhere near that amount of money, especially for a guy who they had no idea what they were going to get out of and how long he would be around for.

They brought him back to pop a rating (which he didn't do) and for nostalgia sake and it predictably blew up in their faces. Probably didn't do much for Warrior's mindset that the belt wasn't immediately put on him upon his return. I don't think Vince even thought about puting the belt on Warrior until he proved that he can work a certain amount of time without having a no-show, or pulling some kind of crap. And, of course, he couldn't do it.
Well, Shawn did have pull with Vince, as he got Vader killed.

I don't think that there's any doubt that Vince spent a lot on Warrior. This is a guy who refused to even attend Summerslam, unless he was given over a half a mil. Everything the guy does, is not done without a massive payoff. Every comment he made was about money in those days, if you followed him. He says "I know my worth" about one hundred times. He was able to get the contract written on his own terms, so there's power right there. And he's one of the few who has sued Vince, and actually won, so I think that tells you right there what a stickler he is, and how obsessive he is over the business side of things. I doubt he'd sign a contract that wasn't highly favorable to him, financially. Especially because he could have used WCW, as it's not like he had any kind of loyalty toward Vince.

I think that the most likely scenario is the post I quoted in that second post. Vader's push was supposed to be huge. Cornette talks about how Shawn was supposed to be winning the belt back from Vader at Royal Rumble, in one of his shoots, so obviously this stuff was planned way ahead of time. Especially because the In Your House December pay per view, was called "IYH: It's time."

Plans are made way ahead of time, so it's feasible that the plans for Warrior were set into motion before he started with the no shows, and before tv ratings collapsed in June of 1996. It may be convenient for them now, to make him look even worse, but I do think that they had big plans for him when they signed him.

Anyway, that post with the scheduling makes perfect sense. Shawn would have had a five month reign with the title, which is not crazy, especially because it would have probably set up Shawn winning the title back in his hometown at the Royal Rumble, at the beginning of the next year. Also, Shawn could have gotten over even more by being the plucky, sympathetic, underdog going after the monstrous heel, since WWE was into him being a face at the time.

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post #16 of 41 (permalink) Old 05-29-2013, 06:07 PM
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Re: Was the Ultimate Warrior scheduled to win the WWF title in 1996?

I don't know if Warrior would've held a title. Warrior was pretty unrelaible, and they were trying to get Shawn over as top guy at the time. Maybe they'd have feuded for the title at some point but I doubt Warrior would've held it.

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Originally Posted by Prior22 View Post
Considering that WWE a few months later put the belt on Sid I could have seen Warrior winning the belt sometime in 1996 had he been on his best behavior. Sid and Warrior were a couple of juiced up guys who couldn't wrestle a lick, but at least Warrior could cut a promo. Given a choice between the two as champion I would choose Warrior.
I know Sid has fluffed a few promos, but when he was on form he was quite good.



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post #17 of 41 (permalink) Old 05-29-2013, 06:42 PM
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Re: Was the Ultimate Warrior scheduled to win the WWF title in 1996?

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I don't know if Warrior would've held a title. Warrior was pretty unrelaible, and they were trying to get Shawn over as top guy at the time. Maybe they'd have feuded for the title at some point but I doubt Warrior would've held it.
This. It was practically Vince's mission to have HBK be "the guy" in '96. Hence "The Leader of the New Generation" stuff and that sentence even being in his Titantron video. It was like his own, personal project it seemed like, at times. No way he was going to give that up instantly to put over and give a guy the World Title who once refused to work a main event match at SummerSlam and was't reliable. *IF* Warrior ever got the title, it would have been after Vince felt comfortable enough with Warrior in knowing that he wasn't going to pull one of his old tricks and/or be unreliable.

I also can't take every single thing Jim Cornette says as the gospel. The guy clearly has as much as a bias when discussing certain topics as anyone else who does numerous shoot interviews. I'm also not even close to convinced that Vader was supposed to win the title. The build leading up to SummerSlam 1996, Vader got the better of Shawn on Raw quite a few times. And when that happens, that means the guy is going to lose at the PPV. I also can't see Vince all of a sudden moving the title off of a guy he's trying to build to move on to a Warrior/Vader house show program. Especially at a time when WCW was killing WWF in the ratings. Would have made no sense to have a World Title program take place on a bunch of shows that aren't even televised.


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post #18 of 41 (permalink) Old 05-29-2013, 07:01 PM
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Re: Was the Ultimate Warrior scheduled to win the WWF title in 1996?

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Originally Posted by Sho'nuff View Post
Warrior defending the title in July against Vader is another example of WWE lies.

First of all, Warrior never missed a show until June 28. So unless they were going to waste a title change as big as HBK/Warrior on a house show or RAW taping, it couldn't have happened. The previous 2-3 monts of tours were based on Warrior, Ahmed and HBK working rotating members of Camp Cornette, leading to International Incident.

His PPV matches were against Goldust, Lawler and somebody else so Warrior winning the belt could have been Summerslam at the earliest. And his no shows had no effect on booking pre-June 28. Seems like WWE forgot what they did at that time and want to make it look like Warrior killed his title win, despite no logical reasoning to show Warrior would have been champion going into July.

If anything, International Incident could have planted the seeds for a Warrior title win. Or later than that, maybe Warrior would have been scheduled to win the number 1 contender battle royal in August that Ahmed Johnson won and it lead to a match at Summerslam.

But IMO, Warrior would never have been in position to go after the belt until after International Incident. His last match was 2-3 weeks before the PPV with him in the 6 man tag. And seeing as how International Incident was July 21, Warriors last match was June 28, unless they were doing it at a house show, I can't see how Warrior was going to defend against Vader in July.

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Finally someone with common sense

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShowStopper '97 View Post
Doesn't make any sense to have that build up of HBKs first title win just to lose it in 3 months. Also, in HBK's book he said that Vince told him he was going to have a long title run. And back then, the standard world title run was 5 months. Wouldn't have made sense to have him lose it in almost half that time, especially when they were trying to make a new star. Plus, it's not like Warrior's return overtook WCW in the ratings.

Just because VKM says so doesnt mean it is written in Stone.

I was invovled in this discussion years ago on another wrestling forum, as far from what I can remember, one of the guys had and published the original poster of that show, and it was WWF Champion HBK vs Vader not WWF Champion Warrior vs Vader. So WWE obviously photoshopped that picture for unknown reasons

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post #19 of 41 (permalink) Old 05-29-2013, 07:06 PM
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Re: Was the Ultimate Warrior scheduled to win the WWF title in 1996?

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Originally Posted by Berkajr View Post
Finally someone with common sense




Just because VKM says so doesnt mean it is written in Stone.

I was invovled in this discussion years ago on another wrestling forum, as far from what I can remember, one of the guys had and published the original poster of that show, and it was WWF Champion HBK vs Vader not WWF Champion Warrior vs Vader. So WWE obviously photoshopped that picture for unknown reasons
Obviously it's not written in stone. But anyone who was watching back then knows that Vince was pretty much cramming HBK down the audience's throat in 1996. Which is the reason why the fans turned on him at Survivor Series 1996 at MSG and rooted for Sid in that match (LOL MSG). For Vince to suddenly just drop that for a guy who was a flake and wasn't taking any of WCW's audience away like he had hoped, would have been odd. Doesn't matter much anyway since it didn't happen and the guy couldn't make it past a few months in the company.


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post #20 of 41 (permalink) Old 05-29-2013, 07:31 PM
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Re: Was the Ultimate Warrior scheduled to win the WWF title in 1996?

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Originally Posted by ShowStopper '97 View Post
Obviously it's not written in stone. But anyone who was watching back then knows that Vince was pretty much cramming HBK down the audience's throat in 1996. Which is the reason why the fans turned on him at Survivor Series 1996 at MSG and rooted for Sid in that match (LOL MSG). For Vince to suddenly just drop that for a guy who was a flake and wasn't taking any of WCW's audience away like he had hoped, would have been odd. Doesn't matter much anyway since it didn't happen and the guy couldn't make it past a few months in the company.
Sorry for being slow, but your point was?

What do you mean by: "the guy couldn't make it past a few months in the company" ?
I assume you believe WWE's version. Just a curious question, did you ever see Warriors shoot regarding his take on his departure in the company? His version kind of puts Vince in the same light as others have made VKM to be. Not saying Warrior is right, but I acuatlly side mroe with Warriors story since he explains everything that ledd up to his departure while WWF just claimed Warrior missed dates on purpose and was fired accordingly

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