What could Bret Hart have done against the Kliq? - Page 4 - Wrestling Forum : WWE, TNA, Debate League, Wrestling Videos, Women of Wrestling Forums
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Old 04-10-2013, 12:29 AM   #31 (permalink)
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Default Re: What could Bret Hart have done against the Kliq ?

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Originally Posted by ninealevyn View Post
Sorry if this has been corrected before I could get to this. Bret Hart did not have FULL CREATIVE CONTROL over his character in his last days in WWE. He had "REASONABLE CREATIVE CONTROL" and that's the biggest issue with the whole screwjob. "REASONABLE" is not a concrete term. It's so poorly written that you could make a case that neither sides argument would stand in court. Plus, court is the last place to determine anything in the wrestling world because an outsider just doesn't get the business. In the wrestling business loses are predetermined as a whole, so Bret should've never had any control over if he wins or loses. Now what he should have full control over is how is character is portrayed despite this. What I mean is, whether he's face or heel, what things his character does or doesn't do, what his character says, but never if he wins or loses. Bret could've agreed to losing, but be vocal in the manner he lost. Not when, not where, but how.
Even if he only had reasonable control, a reasonable judge would not have respected Vince decision to send him out there to perform on a lie. That's not fair business and a judge would've shitted on him for that. How hard they would've hit the WWF is another story, but they would've definitely ate him up for flat out lying to his employee and having him perform under that condition. You can't just break agreements especially when the guy has creative control or reasonable creative control.

And plenty of wrestlers have had control over their wins and losses. Just look at Hogan, Flair and Piper. It was not a new development.
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Old 04-10-2013, 01:08 AM   #32 (permalink)
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Default Re: What could Bret Hart have done against the Kliq?

I just wanted to chime in on the "Bret's not from Montreal and it would be like HBK saying he's not losing because of the US" argument I have heard over the years.

Bret Hart's stock to wcw was his drawing power outside of the US. WCW wanted to expand out in Canada. Bret Hart was turned into a American heel and a world hero.

I can see the argument from Bret that he was going to get completely buried character wise in Montreal. It was even leaked that Bret sold out in the week before Survivor Series.

Bret Hart imo was trying to prevent the Billionaire Ted Skits(where the company would and could easily mock their former champion to devalue his image for wcw) coming alive with him and we saw what happened with the midget stuff right after his departure.

I think both were kind of unreasonable in the whole thing, but that's what happens when there is a wrestling war going on.

I would want THAT Vince Mcmahon back in today's environment to fix today's product.
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Old 04-10-2013, 01:10 AM   #33 (permalink)
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Default Re: What could Bret Hart have done against the Kliq ?

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Originally Posted by Yosihait View Post
Nah, he will be squashed by his fans in Israel and will be exhausted before that...
We can clearly see in your location that you are from Israel ,why do you feel the need to tell us this in every 10th or so post from you? Another thing that comes off as a bit troll-ish.

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Old 04-10-2013, 03:27 AM   #34 (permalink)
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Default Re: What could Bret Hart have done against the Kliq ?

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Originally Posted by superdog View Post
Even if he only had reasonable control, a reasonable judge would not have respected Vince decision to send him out there to perform on a lie. That's not fair business and a judge would've shitted on him for that. How hard they would've hit the WWF is another story, but they would've definitely ate him up for flat out lying to his employee and having him perform under that condition. You can't just break agreements especially when the guy has creative control or reasonable creative control.

And plenty of wrestlers have had control over their wins and losses. Just look at Hogan, Flair and Piper. It was not a new development.
But along with that, wouldn't you have to have some sort of documentation that entails what "reasonable creative control" covers? I mean, if it was in writing, possibly but if it was verbal, that's the equivalent of never happening, leaving Vince available to say he has no recollection of him saying that.

WWE wouldn't have suffered one bit from that, under the grounds that Bret bitched about people not wanting to job to him and he refuses to job to somebody on his way out.

If Vince wins a steroid trial against the government, I don't see any possible punishment he can get from Bret "saying" and assuming that "reasonable creative control" had a total different meaning than what Vince actually defined it as. And according to the interactions of that time, Vince told Bret his actions were not under "reasonable creative control" and IIRC, he threatened Bret with a lawsuit. So, considering Vince was the one to offer the creative control, I'm quite sure his meaning was quite different than what Bret assumed it was.

And furthermore, both sides will have difficulty proving what "reasonable creative control" actually meant.
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Old 04-10-2013, 03:44 AM   #35 (permalink)
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Default Re: What could Bret Hart have done against the Kliq ?

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Originally Posted by superdog View Post
Yes they were worst than Bret. Bret was not fucking people over. He was simply looking out for himself and his people. There are COUNTLESS stories from SEVERAL wrestlers shooting on the kliq fucking people over. You'd have a VERY hard time finding a shoot on Bret Hart, as far as fucking people over. What Bret did as far as politics is concerned was look out for himself and his people. He didn't go out of his way to take people out of the picture like HBK and the kliq were doing. Bret Hart was down with pushing Austin and The Rock. HBK and Triple H did their best to stop them. And there are shoots that speak on them fuckin over wrestlers before and after that. NOT ONE shoot on Bret Hart fucking people over. IF... he had an issues with HBK rising that's one thing, but HBK had an issue with ANYONE trying to rise.

Bret Hart also made it clear that he told HBK that he would job to him, which he did. But HBK said he would never do job to Bret to his face and we saw what happened when it was time to return the favor. He lost his smile.


You articulated it gorgeously!!!!

My take on the situation is very similar to what you described, people mentioning Taker, yes he did shout at Hart.
But HE was the one that made vince apologise to Hart if I remember correctly!

I'll green rep ya once I can mate!
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Old 04-10-2013, 08:30 AM   #36 (permalink)
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Default Re: What could Bret Hart have done against the Kliq ?

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Originally Posted by Alden Heathcliffe View Post
Eh? Dammit, first DualShock, now you. At least you had the decency not to neg me, so I appreciate that.

And the rest of that is pretty much all conjecture. You don't have any figures to back up your claims. Bret's years on top in '94 and '93 weren't Hogan years or Austin years, thats true, he's not a big draw but he got them by. Compare that to Michaels in '96 and Diesel in '95, where the WWE nearly went out of business and it's clear who's years on top were superior.

He went with Michaels because he knew Bret wasn't a draw and was experimenting with other talents to see who could take them to the next level. He never went all the way with Luger, which made sense, he wasn't much of a star outside of the Southern territories, much like Flair. Diesel he tried hard to push and anyone with half a brain could tell that he failed. Michaels was pushed as well, because he was a talented guy, a wrestling magazines favourite, and he was on good terms with him. And it didn't turn out great either. '97 was Bret's year, the Undertaker's year and Austin's year. After '96, when Bret left thanks to injury, exhaustion etc. and the WWE took a dive in business he knew Michaels wasn't a sufficient draw to keep them afloat. He came back, was put in an angle with a man the WWE was clearly going to build up as a top heel and eventually a top face and he was at the focal point of most every major feud in '97. He even got his title back.

The point stands, Bret couldn't be hurt by the Kliq and that much is obvious because he was always the face of WWE's programming at the time and he was popular, and though not at all wildly so he was still McMahon's go to man when things weren't working out. I don't know where you got buried from. Even after his run in the WWE there was a lot of interest in Bret, which WCW promptly wasted and then Austin came in.

There really wasn't a whole lot for Bret to do outside of what I suggested when it came to getting screwed. He could have called Vince out on that contract he offered which Vince couldn't have paid anyway or he could have taken the job or faked his way out of it.

I'm not saying Bret is the best of all time, but much like you sig says, he was the best the WWE had at the time. Considering no one ever passed the torch to him in a major way as it typical when the guard changes, WWE's thin, barley existent midcard, and their outdated lower card scene it's rather impressive Bret and Michaels were able to at least help the WWE through the times. They both put over the man who would become the company's biggest star and I think on the whole, Bret's hard work should at least be respected.
Pfft...

I don't have any "Numbers" to back my claim that Bret drew bad? So show me YOUR numbers. Why should I bring numbers? 1993 and 1994 were bad and that's a fact. What is the smallest buyrate for an In Your House event? Bret-Bulldog...

Shawn couldn't draw well in the Ratings because... the nWo was against him. Bret couldn't draw better.

"The point stands, Bret couldn't be hurt by the Kliq and that much is obvious because he was always the face of WWE's programming at the time and he was popular, and though not at all wildly so he was still McMahon's go to man when things weren't working out. I don't know where you got buried from. Even after his run in the WWE there was a lot of interest in Bret, which WCW promptly wasted and then Austin came in"

Not since 1996... Sorry, but Bret felt like he was buried and he deserved it, because he just couldn't do it. He wasn't that successful.

Bret wasn't the best at that time... You've had Taker and Savage.

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Originally Posted by ShowStopper '97 View Post
What Bret drew in 1994 compared to Diesel in 1995 and HBK in 1996 is more than balanced out when you take into consideration Nitro didn't exist in 1994. Nitro started in September of 1995. And in 1996 the NWO started and is what HBK (and the WWF) had to deal with week in and week out. When Bret was champion in 1993 and 1994, his "drawing" (or lack there of) didn't have much competition. HBK kept the WWF afloat while it went up against WCW's biggest angle of all time, and the hottest period in WCW history.
Green rap for that, Bret drew bad without competition! Heck, he got a bad ratings when WCW had no champion, and that was before their winning streak!

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Originally Posted by Ultimateloser View Post
Superdog nailed it.

Bret Hart had a huge ego and was not a perfect human being.
But he was not a bully like the Kliq and Shawn.
A shame that life is so unfair and Bret is now a cripple while Shawn can go hunting
No. The "stories" about the Kliq are from wrestlers like Mabel, Douglas, The Harris brothers... They are nothing.

Bret wasn't a bully? Maybe, but he was arrogant. He was such an asshole.

And life are fair, and now Bret is crippled.

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We can clearly see in your location that you are from Israel ,why do you feel the need to tell us this in every 10th or so post from you? Another thing that comes off as a bit troll-ish.
We can clearly see that you worship Bret at everything, so why troll us, Bret monkey?
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Old 04-10-2013, 08:38 AM   #37 (permalink)
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Default Re: What could Bret Hart have done against the Kliq?

Yosihait why do you hate Bret exactly?

Just because you want to hate somebody or any specific incident?

As I recall you are too young to even experience the time when Bret was on top.So maybe you just hate the old bitter Bret.

Why don't you hate Shawn if you hate "arrogant assholes"

Would you call yourself a Kliq fan? And if so why?
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Old 04-10-2013, 08:52 AM   #38 (permalink)
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Default Re: What could Bret Hart have done against the Kliq ?

[quote=Yosihait;16684138]

And life are fair, and now Bret is crippled.



/QUOTE]

Ok I can respect any opinion, even one that doesn't agree with mine in threads, but to take pleasure in amn's ill health, that's cruel.

I get it, you dislike Hart, different strokes for different folks. (Wow I just used a really unfortunate turn of phrase, no pun was intended honest)
But I think whether you like a wrestler or not, no one wants to really see any harm come to one.
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Old 04-10-2013, 09:14 AM   #39 (permalink)
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Default Re: What could Bret Hart have done against the Kliq ?

[quote=Nattie7;16684962]
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Originally Posted by Yosihait View Post

And life are fair, and now Bret is crippled.



/QUOTE]

Ok I can respect any opinion, even one that doesn't agree with mine in threads, but to take pleasure in amn's ill health, that's cruel.

I get it, you dislike Hart, different strokes for different folks. (Wow I just used a really unfortunate turn of phrase, no pun was intended honest)
But I think whether you like a wrestler or not, no one wants to really see any harm come to one.
You can think that way, but I think that it's good that Bret is looking so bad and had this stroke.

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Originally Posted by Ultimateloser View Post
Yosihait why do you hate Bret exactly?

Just because you want to hate somebody or any specific incident?

As I recall you are too young to even experience the time when Bret was on top.So maybe you just hate the old bitter Bret.

Why don't you hate Shawn if you hate "arrogant assholes"

Would you call yourself a Kliq fan? And if so why?
I'm a Kliq fan. Just because they were attitude before attitude was cool.

Shawn is not arrogant as Bret, I mean, I've never seen any Shawn interview like Bret's giving.

I hate Bret because he was always bitter.
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Old 04-10-2013, 09:24 AM   #40 (permalink)
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Default Re: What could Bret Hart have done against the Kliq?

you mentioned life is fair
and you're glad bret suffered a stroke

that's real classy, not!

I think that's as much debating I'll be doing on this thread, I can't contribute to such cruel irrational thought
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