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Old 04-09-2013, 03:46 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Default Re: What could Bret Hart have done against the Kliq ?

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Originally Posted by birthday_massacre View Post
Because the taker was on the side of the WWF with Hart. The taker (probably) thought Hart should drop the title and do what is right for the company. There is a story where taker yelled at Bret back stage ITS NOT ALWAYS ABOUT YOU because Bret never wanted to look weak when losing.

I am sure Taker was on Vinces side with screwing over Bret, because Bret could have won at Montreal then never showed up to Raw and had the WWF title on Nitro
The Undertaker was furious with Bret Hart for not taking a Jacknife from Diesel at In Your House before WrestleMania 12 which would have then seen The Undertaker appear to cost Diesel the title thus giving heat to their feud. Bret Hart refused because he didn't want to look weak so The Undertaker screamed at Bret Hart which was a rarity as The Undertaker never got annoyed but Bret Hart hated the fact he was losing his top spot to Shawn Michaels.

As for not playing politics well Bret Hart is known to have only wanted to work with his family and friends from late 1993 through to him dropping the title at WrestleMania 12 and WWE as a whole did this. The Undertaker only worked with his BSK friends and Ted DiBiase whilst Bret Hart worked almost exclusively with his friends and family and The Clique all worked with each other. This was because there not being guaranteed contracts so friends and family worked together to make money for each other.

What happened though was of everyone as a whole The Clique had the best all round in ring performers as a group and whilst they probably did politick I doubt they were any worse than Bret Hart was himself but its known Bret Hart never wanted to lose to anyone clean once he became top guy or look weak in any way yet complained if anyone did the same as seen later on.
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Old 04-09-2013, 04:00 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Default Re: What could Bret Hart have done against the Kliq ?

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Originally Posted by Cliffy Byro View Post
Bret wouldn't have been able to waltz into WCW with the WWF title.

Security wouldn't have let him out the building with the title.

The only reason Madusa pulled it off is because nobody cared about the women's title.
Madusa ain't the only one to pull something like that. We've seen Ric Flair show up on WWF with the WCW title.

And it would've been a hell of a fight to take that belt off Bret Hart.

For those that don't know... According to Bret, he was suppose to retire on Raw the following night and leave the strap with them.
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Old 04-09-2013, 04:08 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Default Re: What could Bret Hart have done against the Kliq ?

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Originally Posted by dave 1981 View Post
The Undertaker was furious with Bret Hart for not taking a Jacknife from Diesel at In Your House before WrestleMania 12 which would have then seen The Undertaker appear to cost Diesel the title thus giving heat to their feud. Bret Hart refused because he didn't want to look weak so The Undertaker screamed at Bret Hart which was a rarity as The Undertaker never got annoyed but Bret Hart hated the fact he was losing his top spot to Shawn Michaels.

As for not playing politics well Bret Hart is known to have only wanted to work with his family and friends from late 1993 through to him dropping the title at WrestleMania 12 and WWE as a whole did this. The Undertaker only worked with his BSK friends and Ted DiBiase whilst Bret Hart worked almost exclusively with his friends and family and The Clique all worked with each other. This was because there not being guaranteed contracts so friends and family worked together to make money for each other.

What happened though was of everyone as a whole The Clique had the best all round in ring performers as a group and whilst they probably did politick I doubt they were any worse than Bret Hart was himself but its known Bret Hart never wanted to lose to anyone clean once he became top guy or look weak in any way yet complained if anyone did the same as seen later on.
Yes they were worst than Bret. Bret was not fucking people over. He was simply looking out for himself and his people. There are COUNTLESS stories from SEVERAL wrestlers shooting on the kliq fucking people over. You'd have a VERY hard time finding a shoot on Bret Hart, as far as fucking people over. What Bret did as far as politics is concerned was look out for himself and his people. He didn't go out of his way to take people out of the picture like HBK and the kliq were doing. Bret Hart was down with pushing Austin and The Rock. HBK and Triple H did their best to stop them. And there are shoots that speak on them fuckin over wrestlers before and after that. NOT ONE shoot on Bret Hart fucking people over. IF... he had an issues with HBK rising that's one thing, but HBK had an issue with ANYONE trying to rise.

Bret Hart also made it clear that he told HBK that he would job to him, which he did. But HBK said he would never do job to Bret to his face and we saw what happened when it was time to return the favor. He lost his smile.

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Old 04-09-2013, 04:08 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Default Re: What could Bret Hart have done against the Kliq?

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Originally Posted by Yosihait View Post
Oh, did I hurt you, Bret monkey?

I wouldn't criticize Bret if people here wouldn't open threads about this pompous, arrogant, bitter human being.

By the way, to the user Alden Heathcliffe... You've green repped me... Too bad.



Nah.

If Bret was actually so popular and so much of a draw (And even if he wasn't and he was just better then Michaels)- Then why Vince choose Michaels? Because he knew Michaels is better.

If Bret was so good, then why did Vince gave up on him after 1996?

Hogan and Austin couldn't be buried for a reason- They made money.

Bret didn't. So he was easy to be buried.

He just didn't fit the Attitude. He hated it. Therefore, Vince gave up on him.

And also, if Bret actually decided to not sue Vince because he wanted to keep kayfabe, then he's very very stupid.
Great post! The kliq wasn't that influential in WWF. Foley wasn't in the kliq, Austin wasn't, Rock wasn't, Bret wasn't.....and these are the top paid talent, the top stars throughout all those years we are talking about.

In WCW we assume that the kliq were influential. But they fought with Bishoff who fired X-Pac.
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Originally Posted by LilOlMe View Post

Honestly, Vince sounded in love with Shawn at times. He certainly let him get away with far more than he would let others. He'd get that genuine giggle in his voice when talking about Shawn when commentating. When Sunny said Vince would let Shawn & her use his personal dressing room to have sex....that raised so many red flags to me that require so much psychoanalyzing of Vince that I just don't have the time for.
I doubt it. Think about all the crazy characters that Vince had to deal with at the times. Cocain addict Shawn Michaels, no-show ego Sid Vicious, borderline madman Bret Hart with his creative control contract.

I think Vince at the time just wanted to get rid of all the craziness. He got rid of two out of three by design and the third by luck. You know what I'm saying?
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Old 04-09-2013, 06:43 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Default Re: What could Bret Hart have done against the Kliq ?

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Originally Posted by Yosihait View Post
Oh, did I hurt you, Bret monkey?

I wouldn't criticize Bret if people here wouldn't open threads about this pompous, arrogant, bitter human being.

By the way, to the user Alden Heathcliffe... You've green repped me... Too bad.



Nah.

If Bret was actually so popular and so much of a draw (And even if he wasn't and he was just better then Michaels)- Then why Vince choose Michaels? Because he knew Michaels is better.

If Bret was so good, then why did Vince gave up on him after 1996?

Hogan and Austin couldn't be buried for a reason- They made money.

Bret didn't. So he was easy to be buried.

He just didn't fit the Attitude. He hated it. Therefore, Vince gave up on him.

And also, if Bret actually decided to not sue Vince because he wanted to keep kayfabe, then he's very very stupid.
Eh? Dammit, first DualShock, now you. At least you had the decency not to neg me, so I appreciate that.

And the rest of that is pretty much all conjecture. You don't have any figures to back up your claims. Bret's years on top in '94 and '93 weren't Hogan years or Austin years, thats true, he's not a big draw but he got them by. Compare that to Michaels in '96 and Diesel in '95, where the WWE nearly went out of business and it's clear who's years on top were superior.

He went with Michaels because he knew Bret wasn't a draw and was experimenting with other talents to see who could take them to the next level. He never went all the way with Luger, which made sense, he wasn't much of a star outside of the Southern territories, much like Flair. Diesel he tried hard to push and anyone with half a brain could tell that he failed. Michaels was pushed as well, because he was a talented guy, a wrestling magazines favourite, and he was on good terms with him. And it didn't turn out great either. '97 was Bret's year, the Undertaker's year and Austin's year. After '96, when Bret left thanks to injury, exhaustion etc. and the WWE took a dive in business he knew Michaels wasn't a sufficient draw to keep them afloat. He came back, was put in an angle with a man the WWE was clearly going to build up as a top heel and eventually a top face and he was at the focal point of most every major feud in '97. He even got his title back.

The point stands, Bret couldn't be hurt by the Kliq and that much is obvious because he was always the face of WWE's programming at the time and he was popular, and though not at all wildly so he was still McMahon's go to man when things weren't working out. I don't know where you got buried from. Even after his run in the WWE there was a lot of interest in Bret, which WCW promptly wasted and then Austin came in.

There really wasn't a whole lot for Bret to do outside of what I suggested when it came to getting screwed. He could have called Vince out on that contract he offered which Vince couldn't have paid anyway or he could have taken the job or faked his way out of it.

I'm not saying Bret is the best of all time, but much like you sig says, he was the best the WWE had at the time. Considering no one ever passed the torch to him in a major way as it typical when the guard changes, WWE's thin, barley existent midcard, and their outdated lower card scene it's rather impressive Bret and Michaels were able to at least help the WWE through the times. They both put over the man who would become the company's biggest star and I think on the whole, Bret's hard work should at least be respected.
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Old 04-09-2013, 10:13 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Default Re: What could Bret Hart have done against the Kliq?

If you can't beat them, join them.


I understand Bret wasn't into the politicking but I'm nearly positive that in 1996-97, he had more leverage than the Kliq. Also, when he and HBK's problems really escalated, all Shawn had was HHH, who I doubt had a big enough voice to make an impact on Bret's career.

IMO, they didn't damage Bret at all, he damaged himself by seemingly not wanting to pass the torch to HBK, considering neither of them made WWE a heap of money in the mid 90s. The direction Vince wanted WWE to go in was the direction designed for a HBK and not Bret. So, Bret should have just been cool with that and took the L.

Also, he should have either left in 1992 or 1996 when he had the chance. He stuck around for the kayfabe accomplishments and I can respect that but as of 1996 (before WM 12), it wasn't like the signs were there that WWE wanted HBK as the top guy and not Bret. Being faithful in the wrestling business means nothing anymore, aside from Undertaker.
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Old 04-09-2013, 11:31 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Default Re: What could Bret Hart have done against the Kliq?

What Bret drew in 1994 compared to Diesel in 1995 and HBK in 1996 is more than balanced out when you take into consideration Nitro didn't exist in 1994. Nitro started in September of 1995. And in 1996 the NWO started and is what HBK (and the WWF) had to deal with week in and week out. When Bret was champion in 1993 and 1994, his "drawing" (or lack there of) didn't have much competition. HBK kept the WWF afloat while it went up against WCW's biggest angle of all time, and the hottest period in WCW history.
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Old 04-09-2013, 11:39 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Default Re: What could Bret Hart have done against the Kliq?

He could have thrown a hissy fit and went to WCW.
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Old 04-10-2013, 12:02 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Default Re: What could Bret Hart have done against the Kliq ?

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Originally Posted by superdog View Post
Technically, he was in the right to sue over the screwjob since he had full creative control over the last 30 days of his contract. But of course he didn't want the circus and probably didn't want to disrespect kayfabe. Plus the political/justice world doesn't respect wrestling, so he probably would've had to fight for the lawsuit. Either way, Vince didn't care. He would've loved the circus that he would've gotten from a lawsuit and the payout would've been a much weaker loss than risking Bret Hart show up on Nitro with the WWF Championship.
Sorry if this has been corrected before I could get to this. Bret Hart did not have FULL CREATIVE CONTROL over his character in his last days in WWE. He had "REASONABLE CREATIVE CONTROL" and that's the biggest issue with the whole screwjob. "REASONABLE" is not a concrete term. It's so poorly written that you could make a case that neither sides argument would stand in court. Plus, court is the last place to determine anything in the wrestling world because an outsider just doesn't get the business. In the wrestling business loses are predetermined as a whole, so Bret should've never had any control over if he wins or loses. Now what he should have full control over is how is character is portrayed despite this. What I mean is, whether he's face or heel, what things his character does or doesn't do, what his character says, but never if he wins or loses. Bret could've agreed to losing, but be vocal in the manner he lost. Not when, not where, but how.


I NEVER thought Bret was in the right for this. Did he get screwed? No, but it makes him the babyface of the story and makes it a better story to tell. Bret's not even from Montreal. That's like Shawn saying "Well, since we're in the U.S., I shouldn't lose." His contract was expiring, and it was his last physical date on his contract. He was cleared by WCW to work until the last actual dates, but why should WWE work on WCW's time? Seriously, How egotistical of Bret, "I'm going to leave this company to the direct competition and I don't want to drop the belt because we're at a big pay per view in my home country against a guy I don't like." His bullshit left everybody's hands tied. Did Vince lie to him? Yes, but at this point Bret held the damn title hostage. Did Shawn bitch his way out of dropping the belt to him at Mania '13? Yes, but that's not the point of this incident. Bret also goes around bitching about how Hogan never put him over on his way out, but he's just as guilty. I like Bret, but fuck him and his bullshit in this case.
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Old 04-10-2013, 12:06 AM   #30 (permalink)
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Default Re: What could Bret Hart have done against the Kliq ?

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Originally Posted by superdog View Post
Yes they were worst than Bret. Bret was not fucking people over. He was simply looking out for himself and his people. There are COUNTLESS stories from SEVERAL wrestlers shooting on the kliq fucking people over. You'd have a VERY hard time finding a shoot on Bret Hart, as far as fucking people over. What Bret did as far as politics is concerned was look out for himself and his people. He didn't go out of his way to take people out of the picture like HBK and the kliq were doing. Bret Hart was down with pushing Austin and The Rock. HBK and Triple H did their best to stop them. And there are shoots that speak on them fuckin over wrestlers before and after that. NOT ONE shoot on Bret Hart fucking people over. IF... he had an issues with HBK rising that's one thing, but HBK had an issue with ANYONE trying to rise.

Bret Hart also made it clear that he told HBK that he would job to him, which he did. But HBK said he would never do job to Bret to his face and we saw what happened when it was time to return the favor. He lost his smile.
Superdog nailed it.

Bret Hart had a huge ego and was not a perfect human being.
But he was not a bully like the Kliq and Shawn.
A shame that life is so unfair and Bret is now a cripple while Shawn can go hunting
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