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Old 04-07-2013, 05:44 PM   #61 (permalink)
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Default Re: When did the Attitude Era end?

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Originally Posted by superdog View Post
It's not rare for a director churn out a good or even a great movie with average actors, so that's a bad analogy. Even in sports, we've seen Larry Brown's No-Star Pistons win a championship and make 2 trip to the finals. They didn't do it without him tho. Unlike Russo, he proved his value.

Just like Austin needs freedom do be Stone Cold, Russo needs freedom to be a writer. We can play that game all day. But what remains the same is that Austin and The Rock were very successful without Russo, while Russo became a joke in the wrestling community without them.

And lets get something straight... Russo was not even the head writer until the END of 1996. MONTHS after Austin 3:16 and the whole Stone Cold craze got started. Russo didn't start anything.

WWF started to win in the ratings war in the second quarter of 98, ironically within a week or 2 after Austin, the man who started the era, became the champ. So much for Russo being the key to anything. He couldn't get the job done with anyone else as the champ.

And I believe that they won the ratings war bcuz WCW shot themselves in the foot. I believe that WCW 96/97 is easily superior to any 2 year period of the Attitude era, so don't group me with the crowd that thinks WWF's attitude really beat WCW. IMO, 1998 was the weakest year for WWF between 96-2001 in terms of overall quality/entertainment and especially talent. WCW just beat themselves.

And the build for this years Wrestlemania is weak bcuz pg limits the talent quite a bit and The Rock, Brock, Jericho and Triple H are part time wrestlers... They ain't full time wrestlers so their drawing power will not come close to its peak.

And yeah, the pg thing really does matter. Raw's ratings didn't sky rocket as a pg show.
The example with the movies is more about your comment "his work in WWE was shitty but he had stars like Austin, Rock and Triple H to cover it up". You can have a good movie with average actors and a great script but you can't have a great movie with great actors and a horrible script.

And I disagree that it was more about WCW beating themselves than WWE delivering great TV, especially in 1998. Yes, WCW had many mistakes with the stale nWo, ruining Goldberg and not pushing younger talents but saying that is a little bit unfair. A worker against his boss was something never seen on this level (they were numerous authority storylines but nothing was so big like Austin vs McMahon), the appearance of Tyson brought the cool factor, new fresh faces on the top of the wrestling world like The Rock, Stone Cold and Triple H, crazy over the top stunts like Mick Foley at KOTR98 or Funk & Foley in the dumpster, Sable, Sunny and Marlena brought sex on TV like no female wrestler has ever did, especially in WWE and most Raw episodes had the TV14 rating. WWE looked exactly like the popular ECW, only bigger and better produced.
WCW was stale and made mistakes but WWE did a lot of work to win the ratings war.

The PG in this case (this year's RTWM) has nothing to do with it that we have 2 rematches and that 2 weeks before the biggest event of the year only 3(!) matches were official. The thing Punk and Undertaker did with the urn and Paul Bearer show that you can at least try to make a feud intense and personal even in the PG era
Look at the rest Rock/Cena and Lesnar/Triple H had each one interesting segment and the rest was meh, the rest of the card is utter crap. Punk/Taker proved that this RTWM could be better despite the PG rating and that big names means nothing when the WWE creative is terrible and that brings me back to that Russo played a big part in the AE despite big names who were not nearly as big in 1997
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Old 04-07-2013, 05:46 PM   #62 (permalink)
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Default Re: When did the Attitude Era end?

After Invasion. ECW and WCW stars are now under the WWE roster. Sorta ended after Survivor Series 2001.
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Old 04-07-2013, 05:47 PM   #63 (permalink)
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Default Re: When did the Attitude Era end?

Around 2002-03 IMO.
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Old 04-07-2013, 07:01 PM   #64 (permalink)
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Default Re: When did the Attitude Era end?

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Originally Posted by DualShock View Post
The example with the movies is more about your comment "his work in WWE was shitty but he had stars like Austin, Rock and Triple H to cover it up". You can have a good movie with average actors and a great script but you can't have a great movie with great actors and a horrible script.

And I disagree that it was more about WCW beating themselves than WWE delivering great TV, especially in 1998. Yes, WCW had many mistakes with the stale nWo, ruining Goldberg and not pushing younger talents but saying that is a little bit unfair. A worker against his boss was something never seen on this level (they were numerous authority storylines but nothing was so big like Austin vs McMahon), the appearance of Tyson brought the cool factor, new fresh faces on the top of the wrestling world like The Rock, Stone Cold and Triple H, crazy over the top stunts like Mick Foley at KOTR98 or Funk & Foley in the dumpster, Sable, Sunny and Marlena brought sex on TV like no female wrestler has ever did, especially in WWE and most Raw episodes had the TV14 rating. WWE looked exactly like the popular ECW, only bigger and better produced.
WCW was stale and made mistakes but WWE did a lot of work to win the ratings war.

The PG in this case (this year's RTWM) has nothing to do with it that we have 2 rematches and that 2 weeks before the biggest event of the year only 3(!) matches were official. The thing Punk and Undertaker did with the urn and Paul Bearer show that you can at least try to make a feud intense and personal even in the PG era
Look at the rest Rock/Cena and Lesnar/Triple H had each one interesting segment and the rest was meh, the rest of the card is utter crap. Punk/Taker proved that this RTWM could be better despite the PG rating and that big names means nothing when the WWE creative is terrible and that brings me back to that Russo played a big part in the AE despite big names who were not nearly as big in 1997

I've already proved u wrong about Vince Russo so I'm done with that topic. No need to beat a dead horse.

WWF didn't beat WCW until a few weeks after the NWO split up, which included Lugar and Sting being turned into Kevin's flunkies and Scott Hall was a disappearing act. It's also pretty obvious that WCW had the better roster in 1998. It's pretty obvious that they played a bigger role in their own decline in 1998.

PG does matter. People are saying The Rock ain't as good anymore, when he clearly is. They just don't understand that being pg doesn't allow him to be the Rock from 2000. In reality, he hasn't lost anything. It's just a different system. And I love it how u completely ignored the fact that The Rock, Brock, Undertaker and Triple H are part timers who haven't put in enough work in past 12 months to be the big draws they once were. You think the Undertaker cuttin a few promos out of 52 weeks is going to magically make his road to Wrestlemania great??? How many matches did Taker wrestle in the past 13 months? 1. I won't even ask how many tv appearance he made in the past 13 months. How many matches did Triple wrestle in the past 13 months? 3. How many matches has the Rock had in the past 13 months? 3. How many matches did Brock wrestle in the past 13 months? 2.

It's no surprise they couldn't get a great build up. How can anyone get excited about people that don't even wrestle. And I'm sure it's tougher on the writers working with a part time guys. We got four guys (not wrestlers) in the 2 or 3 main events that don't even deserve to be on the card at all. That's why the build wasn't anything noteworthy.

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Old 04-07-2013, 07:37 PM   #65 (permalink)
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Default Re: When did the Attitude Era end?

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Originally Posted by superdog View Post
I've already proved u wrong about Vince Russo so I'm done with that topic. No need to beat a dead horse.

WWF didn't beat WCW until a few weeks after the NWO split up, which included Lugar and Sting being turned into Kevin's flunkies and Scott Hall was a disappearing act. It's also pretty obvious that WCW had the better roster in 1998. It's pretty obvious that they played a bigger role in their own decline in 1998.

PG does matter. People are saying The Rock ain't as good anymore, when he clearly is. They just don't understand that being pg doesn't allow him to be the Rock from 2000. In reality, he hasn't lost anything. It's just a different system. And I love it how u completely ignored the fact that The Rock, Brock, Undertaker and Triple H are part timers who haven't put in enough work in past 12 months to be the big draws they once were. You think the Undertaker cuttin a few promos out of 52 weeks is going to magically make his road to Wrestlemania great??? How many matches did Taker wrestle in the past 13 months? 1. I won't even ask how many tv appearance he made in the past 13 months. How many matches did Triple wrestle in the past 13 months? 3. How many matches has the Rock had in the past 13 months? 3. How many matches did Brock wrestle in the past 13 months? 2.

It's no surprise they couldn't get a great build up. How can anyone get excited about people that don't even wrestle. And I'm sure it's tougher on the writers working with a part time guys. We got four guys (not wrestlers) in the 2 or 3 main events that don't even deserve to be on the card at all. That's why the build wasn't anything noteworthy.
WWF beat WCW in the ratings in 1998 for the first time after a long time with Austin vs McMahon in the main event. It had better ratings not because WCW screwed up that night, it was because WWE did something right. Your posts sound like "WWE did not beat WCW because WWE was so good, it was because WCW was so bad" and that's not true. In 1998 both companies were equally good and with the comment that WCW had better stars you just proved my point. It was not about big names, it was about great storylines in the AE and Russo delivered.

Yes, almost all stars of this WrestleMania are part timers, so what? Undertaker is also a part timer who appeared only in the last weeks and they did a solid build up for the Taker/Punk match, why not also Triple H/Lesnar and Rock/Cena? except of the Q&A and the Lesnar/Hunter bloody fight everything else was meh. Is the PG rating the excuse for Jericho dong almost nothing since his return only to start a soon forgetable feud with Fandango in the last 2 weeks? Or that Team Hell No is stale? That has nothing to do how miserable this RTWM is. Why not making something special on the last Raw instead of having The Rock, Cena, Triple H and Paul Heyman only talking and saying what we all already know?
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Old 04-07-2013, 08:18 PM   #66 (permalink)
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Default Re: When did the Attitude Era end?

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WWF beat WCW in the ratings in 1998 for the first time after a long time with Austin vs McMahon in the main event. It had better ratings not because WCW screwed up that night, it was because WWE did something right. Your posts sound like "WWE did not beat WCW because WWE was so good, it was because WCW was so bad" and that's not true. In 1998 both companies were equally good and with the comment that WCW had better stars you just proved my point. It was not about big names, it was about great storylines in the AE and Russo delivered.

Yes, almost all stars of this WrestleMania are part timers, so what? Undertaker is also a part timer who appeared only in the last weeks and they did a solid build up for the Taker/Punk match, why not also Triple H/Lesnar and Rock/Cena? except of the Q&A and the Lesnar/Hunter bloody fight everything else was meh. Is the PG rating the excuse for Jericho dong almost nothing since his return only to start a soon forgetable feud with Fandango in the last 2 weeks? Or that Team Hell No is stale? That has nothing to do how miserable this RTWM is. Why not making something special on the last Raw instead of having The Rock, Cena, Triple H and Paul Heyman only talking and saying what we all already know?
I wasn't saying WWF was bad in 1998. Just that WCW 96/97 was easily better and that WCW definitely had the better roster in 1998. I also firmly believe that 1998 was WWF's weakest year from 1996-2001.

Yea, the writers did a bad job at building the road to wrestlemania. I'll give u that. Taker/Punk build was great, but it was waaaaaay too late to inject Taker into the mix. Many people had already made up on their minds on not buying the event by the time Taker popped up. And overall I still believe that filling the main event slots with part timers is the main reason no one is excited about it. And I would never expect them to build a Fandango match so I excuse them from building that properly.

I don't think very highly of Kane or Daniel Bryan so I can't blame the writers on that. Team Hell No really is stale to me. It takes too much great writing to bring the best out of them. Kane has always relied solely on great writing and the Undertaker. Daniel Bryan can wrestle, but he looks pretty bad when compared to the more charismatic wrestlers that the company has to offer. It's no secret that the company has stretched it's roster thin and are clearly misusing/underusing the good talent that they have - Randy Orton, Dolph Zigglar, The Miz, Mark Henry, Christian and Chris Jericho. There is no way Jack Swagger should be in the World Heavyweight title match over any of the guys I just named plus CM Punk unless there's some serious conduct issues going on in the company. Even if it is a secondary title. At least, it's the second biggest title.

Last edited by superdog : 04-07-2013 at 08:21 PM.
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Old 04-08-2013, 01:37 AM   #67 (permalink)
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Default Re: When did the Attitude Era end?

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The end of the greatest era in wrestling
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Old 04-10-2013, 06:10 PM   #68 (permalink)
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Default Re: When did the Attitude Era end?

I thought suggestions saying 1999 looked ridiculous at first, but to be fair a good case was made there once I read it.

However this promo below was being shown in early 2002, indicating that even the company still recognised that the era was still running. I would say the end of the AE was when the company changed from WWF to WWE.

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Old 04-11-2013, 01:33 AM   #69 (permalink)
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Default Re: When did the Attitude Era end?

attitude is forever
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Old 04-11-2013, 01:41 AM   #70 (permalink)
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Default Re: When did the Attitude Era end?

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Around 2002-03 IMO.
But who was Ruthless Agression era?
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