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Old 02-08-2013, 06:27 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Default Re: Why did WCW Fail

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Originally Posted by IRISHwhip78 View Post
Yes WCW was losing money
All that just for you to basically agree that WCW was losing money?


WCW was somewhat exclusive to Turner networks long before Turner even purchased the company from the Crocketts. Aside from syndication, you've never seen WCW on any other networks. Big reason for that is WCW established TBS as a superstation and reached damn near every market in the country.


Here's how Meltzer breaks it down.

He suggests that in 1992, if WCW would book a PPV that drew 130,000 buyrates at $19.95, that would net the company about $1.2 million. In reality, the total revenue for the PPV would be over $2.5 million. So from my mathematics, that is the equivalent of 46% of the PPV revenue WCW was receiving.

Further more, he says if they run a PPV that draws 65,000 buys at $19.95, that would net them nearly $600,000, yet the actual total revenue would be about $1.3 million. Again, this comes out to 46% of PPV revenue going to WCW.

So, as long as WCW PPV's drew at least a 0.3 (65,000 buys) and they maintained at least a $31,000 house show gate, Meltzer basically says it could be lucrative. Problem is, they were making an average of $22,000 at the gate on house shows in the early 90s.

That lead to a financial loss on the wrestling expect. In turn, those in power tried to cut expenses, notably Bill Watts, who wanted to do away with all big contracts and pay guys between $350 to $1,000 a night, depending on card placement and with no guranteed dates. He also wanted to cut production costs, so he began taping months worth of television shows in Orlando, as they were able to rent the venue for cheap. And according to Watts, he took the losses from $8 million for the year before he joined to under $400,000 after 1 year in charge. People hated his style but he served his purpose and that was to cut expenses. And not sure how true but from what I've read, WCW lost $23 million in 1993 after Watts left.

Turner didn't care because he was just appreciative of what the original World Championship Wrestling program did for his empire. By the way, I'm quite sure the World Championship Wrestling name was around for at least 10 years before WCW, the company was formed, as Georgia Championship Wrestling and WWE at one point in 1984. Vince ended up buying out Georgia Championship Wrestling in 1984, and with that, acquired the Saturday night World Championship Wrestling timeslot, after Turner refused to sell him a timeslot. After various complaints, Turner offered Vince $1 million to get the timeslot, at which point JCP began using the timeslot.

So technically speaking, Turner already owned World Championship Wrestling (the name anyway) and the timeslot that the later WCW would continue to use for nearly 15 years. All he did was buy out Crockett and put it under the WCW umbrella, instead of JCP because, well, he owned the name "World Championship Wrestling", and because Crockett was in debt with too many people.
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Old 02-08-2013, 06:30 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Default Re: Why did WCW Fail

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Originally Posted by Deandre Cole View Post
You're basing your whole argument on 1996?


I'M TALKING ABOUT THE HISTORY OF WCW, 1988-2001!!!!


When Time Warner took over, WCW was making money. That has jack shit to do with the previous 8 years, when they, for the most part, LOST MONEY.


And obviously, WCW made TBS money. If you do your fucking research, it was said all along that Turner didn't mind spending money on WCW because it made money for his network, by way of advertising.


At this point, it is what it is. I'm quoting Meltzer and people who, unlike us, actually worked in the fucking company, a few of them in front office and all share the same sentiments that for the most part between 1988 and 1995, WCW was losing money.


You're comparing the sales of lemonade to the structure of a global empire? Use any analogy you want, I'm just repeating what those who were there have been saying for years.
You're only making the IrishWhip's case stronger by stating that Turner didn't mind spending money on WCW because it made money for his network and then you mentioned the split with Turner Home Entertainment.

While we all know WCW lost money you're just stating that its making other parts of Turner money.

While it may be true that WCW didn't make a profit you need to examine all aspects of WCW to see why they weren't making any money. I'm sure WCW profits were funneled into TBS and THE. WCW was the lowest company in the Turner Empire.

You really need to look at WCW like this to see if they made money.

Did WCW make a profit when you include the revenue it brought in to THE and TBS?
If WCW wasn't a part of Turner could they have had a better deal then they had with THE and how much would TBS pay them for programming?
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Old 02-08-2013, 07:21 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Default Re: Why did WCW Fail

Booking didn't kill WcW, Contracts didn't kill WcW. Going family friendly when it was the edgi-ness that popularized the product hurt them but in the end a business merger with a company that despised wrestling killed it.

WWE had zero to do with it. Honestly, a few different choices and WcW would still be around. It was definitely the better company of the 2.
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Old 02-08-2013, 07:55 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Default Re: Why did WCW Fail

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Originally Posted by MANTI TEO View Post
You're only making the IrishWhip's case stronger by stating that Turner didn't mind spending money on WCW because it made money for his network and then you mentioned the split with Turner Home Entertainment.

While we all know WCW lost money you're just stating that its making other parts of Turner money.

While it may be true that WCW didn't make a profit you need to examine all aspects of WCW to see why they weren't making any money. I'm sure WCW profits were funneled into TBS and THE. WCW was the lowest company in the Turner Empire.

You really need to look at WCW like this to see if they made money.

Did WCW make a profit when you include the revenue it brought in to THE and TBS?
If WCW wasn't a part of Turner could they have had a better deal then they had with THE and how much would TBS pay them for programming?
No, I don't have to look at it like anything. MELTZER does, as I'm getting my information from his reports.


I never denied WCW wasn't making other parts of Turner money. I've always credited them with that in every Ted Turner related thread I've posted in this section.


As for your last 2 questions, do you really expect ME to have an answer to that? I'm quite sure none of us here no how much revenue TBS & THE made from WCW programming. All I know is THE/TBS acquired 54% of all PPV revenue.


What you guys are failing to understand is that WCW in the early 90s were lucky enough to sell 150,000 PPV's. They used their Saturday night timeslot to hype a big show at the Omni more than their PPV, considering PPV was the way for them to profit.

So, if WCW moves 150,000 PPV's, the total revenue is nearly $3 million. But, WCW's 46% allows them to net slightly under $1.4 million.

And according to Meltzer, in the early 90s, the best way for them to turn a profit was to put on 4-6 PPV's with a decent buyrate, plus keep house show gates above $31,000. The whole reason Watts did what he did in 92-93 was to prevent the company from losing money, as he claimed they lost $8 million in 1991 but only $400,000 with him on board for the calendar year.



Bottom line, take this up with Meltzer. It came from him, as he devoted a nice amount of time in the early 90s in speaking on WCW's problems. And one of the problems he spoke about was how for the first 4 years, they remained in the red. I swear, I wish I knew how to convert MOBI & EPUB files, as I have a shitload of autobiographies from Bischoff, the Rise and Fall of WCW, Road Warrior Animal, Larry Zbyszko, Piper, Funk and a few randoms from various guys who were there and I'm sure they'll likely have the same account that Meltzer had.
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Old 02-08-2013, 08:16 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Default Re: Why did WCW Fail

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Originally Posted by charmed1 View Post
Booking didn't kill WcW, Contracts didn't kill WcW. Going family friendly when it was the edgi-ness that popularized the product hurt them but in the end a business merger with a company that despised wrestling killed it.

WWE had zero to do with it. Honestly, a few different choices and WcW would still be around. It was definitely the better company of the 2.

AOL didn't despise WRESTLING.

Smackdown was on the CW which was a joint venture between CBS and Warner Brothers from 2006 to 2008. Also Warner Brothers has had plenty of ventures with the WWE.

Time Warner isn't going get in the particulars of what a cable channel has on TV.

What happened was WCW was losing money and then they wanted to sell it to get it off their books.

My guess is then they found out that WCW would cost to buy from a 3rd party and realized they could save a ton of money buying syndicated shows instead and get similar ratings.

WCW is dead because it was poorly mismanaged. If it was making money do you really think AOL Time Warner would shut it down??? Seriously the stockholders would go crazy.
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Old 02-08-2013, 08:39 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Default Re: Why did WCW Fail

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Originally Posted by MANTI TEO View Post
AOL didn't despise WRESTLING.

Smackdown was on the CW which was a joint venture between CBS and Warner Brothers from 2006 to 2008. Also Warner Brothers has had plenty of ventures with the WWE.
Dude, you really need to do your research.


Jamie Kellner wanted nothing to do with WRESTLING.

Once he took over as chairman of Time Warner, he canceled all WCW programming. His reason was that wrestling wasn't as marketable, nor worth the risk of going further in debt.

IT WAS HIS CALL TO PULL THE PROGRAMMING.


Therefore, Smackdown airing on CW has no relevancy to why Kellner pulled program because he didn't like wrestling, since Kellner relinquished his position with Time Warner 3 YEARS BEFORE CW WAS EVEN CREATED. Time Warner was under different management then. Gerald Levin quit in 2002. Kellner left in 2003. Everything was headed by Phillip Kent, who wasn't even around during the initial Time Warner merger in 1996 or the AOL/Time Warner merger in 2000 that got approved in 2001.



Anybody who knows anything about the death of WCW or WCW in general know that it was Kellner's call to take them off TV because he felt wrestling was no longer marketable. He was the boss and as majority shareholder, had that power. All the other head honchos who were on board during the merger, left 2-3 years prior to the formation of the CW. Therefore, none of the "execs" who wanted WCW off the air were no longer running the ship when CW was created.



Please, do some research.
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Old 02-08-2013, 08:56 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Default Re: Why did WCW Fail

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Originally Posted by Deandre Cole View Post
No, I don't have to look at it like anything. MELTZER does, as I'm getting my information from his reports.


I never denied WCW wasn't making other parts of Turner money. I've always credited them with that in every Ted Turner related thread I've posted in this section.


As for your last 2 questions, do you really expect ME to have an answer to that? I'm quite sure none of us here no how much revenue TBS & THE made from WCW programming. All I know is THE/TBS acquired 54% of all PPV revenue.


What you guys are failing to understand is that WCW in the early 90s were lucky enough to sell 150,000 PPV's. They used their Saturday night timeslot to hype a big show at the Omni more than their PPV, considering PPV was the way for them to profit.

So, if WCW moves 150,000 PPV's, the total revenue is nearly $3 million. But, WCW's 46% allows them to net slightly under $1.4 million.

And according to Meltzer, in the early 90s, the best way for them to turn a profit was to put on 4-6 PPV's with a decent buyrate, plus keep house show gates above $31,000. The whole reason Watts did what he did in 92-93 was to prevent the company from losing money, as he claimed they lost $8 million in 1991 but only $400,000 with him on board for the calendar year.



Bottom line, take this up with Meltzer. It came from him, as he devoted a nice amount of time in the early 90s in speaking on WCW's problems. And one of the problems he spoke about was how for the first 4 years, they remained in the red. I swear, I wish I knew how to convert MOBI & EPUB files, as I have a shitload of autobiographies from Bischoff, the Rise and Fall of WCW, Road Warrior Animal, Larry Zbyszko, Piper, Funk and a few randoms from various guys who were there and I'm sure they'll likely have the same account that Meltzer had.
So if WCW only lost $400,000.00 with Watts in control and they were providing TBS with free programming and THE was taking a bigger slice of the PPV pie then normal can you see why someone would make a statement that WCW wasn't losing money.

Splitting the PPV's with THE and getting the downside of the 46/54 split doesn't seem like good business.

If you just went with a 50/50 split Watts actually made WCW money.
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Old 02-08-2013, 09:10 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Default Re: Why did WCW Fail

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deandre Cole View Post
Dude, you really need to do your research.


Jamie Kellner wanted nothing to do with WRESTLING.

Once he took over as chairman of Time Warner, he canceled all WCW programming. His reason was that wrestling wasn't as marketable, nor worth the risk of going further in debt.

IT WAS HIS CALL TO PULL THE PROGRAMMING.


Therefore, Smackdown airing on CW has no relevancy to why Kellner pulled program because he didn't like wrestling, since Kellner relinquished his position with Time Warner 3 YEARS BEFORE CW WAS EVEN CREATED. Time Warner was under different management then. Gerald Levin quit in 2002. Kellner left in 2003. Everything was headed by Phillip Kent, who wasn't even around during the initial Time Warner merger in 1996 or the AOL/Time Warner merger in 2000 that got approved in 2001.



Anybody who knows anything about the death of WCW or WCW in general know that it was Kellner's call to take them off TV because he felt wrestling was no longer marketable. He was the boss and as majority shareholder, had that power. All the other head honchos who were on board during the merger, left 2-3 years prior to the formation of the CW. Therefore, none of the "execs" who wanted WCW off the air were no longer running the ship when CW was created.



Please, do some research.
So how come Kellner didn't object to FOX AIRING WWF programming when he was at FOX?
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Old 02-08-2013, 09:52 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Default Re: Why did WCW Fail

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Originally Posted by MANTI TEO View Post
So if WCW only lost $400,000.00 with Watts in control and they were providing TBS with free programming and THE was taking a bigger slice of the PPV pie then normal can you see why someone would make a statement that WCW wasn't losing money.

Splitting the PPV's with THE and getting the downside of the 46/54 split doesn't seem like good business.

If you just went with a 50/50 split Watts actually made WCW money.
Depends if you believe Watts or not.


Meltzer has a list of WCW business under Watts and compares it to that of his predecessors (Herd & Frye).

Quote:
AVERAGE ATTENDANCE

Watts 1,594 (-2.7%)

Predecessors 1,638


AVERAGE HOUSE

Watts $14,158 (-27.2%)

Predecessors $19,444


SELLOUT PERCENTAGE

Watts 2.4

Predecessors 4.5


AVERAGE CABLE TELEVISION RATING

Watts 2.04 (-19.4%)

Predecessors 2.53


AVERAGE CLASH RATING

Watts 3.15 (-19.2%)

Predecessors 3.90


AVERAGE PPV BUY RATE

Watts 0.55 (-40.9%)

Predecessors 0.93

The shows weren't drawing with Watts in charge. However, he cut expenses, which was his entire purpose, as they hired him and asked him to drop the losses to under the $8 million that it was the previous year. Technically, Watts didn't make the company any money. He just spent less than either of the 2 that preceded him.


With a 50/50 split, hell yeah Watts would have made the company money. At the end of the fiscal, that would have been a combined addition of 24% in PPV revenue, on top of the fact that Watts cut out the guranteed contracts and taped months worth of shows in a weeks time in Orlando. He cut back on every expense possible and saved them from the overspending that Herd & Frey had allowed previously.


And if you look at the quote from Meltzer I posted, business was actually worse during Watts tenure than in Herd & Frey combined. But, he financially helped the company because he wasn't spending ridiculous amounts of money. But he says that politics came into play and Bill Shaw had him removed (although he was fired more so for the racist/homophobic comments and the fact that nobody really liked him).
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Old 02-08-2013, 09:58 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Default Re: Why did WCW Fail

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Originally Posted by MANTI TEO View Post
So how come Kellner didn't object to FOX AIRING WWF programming when he was at FOX?
You just reaching now.


First of all, read my previous posts CAREFULLY. Kellner has publicly said that he felt wrestling was no longer marketable (to a demographic that would attract the right advertisers). So, he felt it was best for the networks to take a different direction, a direction that lead them to making money, instead of investing in a company that was losing money.

That has nothing to do with WWF in 1992, as it was still HIGHLY marketable. Not to mention, WWF only ran TWICE on FOX.

Surely, you're not trying to compare the state of WCW in 2001 to that of WWF in 1992. Not only that but Kellner pretty much owned WCW. Had no hands in WWF's pockets, nor was WWF on life support in 1992.
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