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Old 02-08-2013, 11:32 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Default Re: Why did WCW Fail

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Originally Posted by Quasi Juice View Post
Always makes me laugh when people say 'derp, AOL killed WCW! Nothing else'. Sure, they pulled the plug on WCW, because they were losing millions and millions of dollars each year, it was a horrible investment. Not to mention the company was rotten on the inside and ratings were getting lower each year. Lots of super expensive guys were under long contracts they couldn't get out of as well, so it's not like they could start with a clean slate easily. All those things the OP mentioned contributed to the decision to let Nitro and Thunder go in the end and to sell the company. Are you going to tell me that if WCW had actually been making a profit and was still as hot as in 1997 they would have pulled the plug on WCW? Hell no.
You're wrong.

Why? Because that was their reason to SELL the company, and also- because Wrestling never fitted to them.

But their reason to cancel the shows wasn't because of the money. After they would've sold their company, that wasn't the problem. And it WAS their best rated show. So why canceling it? Simply because Kellner didn't thought wrestling is fitting his new image.
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Old 02-08-2013, 01:14 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Default Re: Why did WCW Fail

Hmm, let's see... WCW was losing, like, gazillions of dollars, and the corporate chefs decided to pull the plug. It's simple really. And why were they losing gazillions? Well, we all know that.
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Old 02-08-2013, 01:43 PM   #23 (permalink)
Been there, done that, and got the T-shirt, son, and you're just doing reruns.
 
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Default Re: Why did WCW Fail

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Originally Posted by IRISHwhip78 View Post
AOL had nothing to do with killing WCW. The fiscal mismanagement was the sole reason they shut it down.

Let me explain WCW never lost money until the end. Before Turner bought WCW he would pay Jim Crockett to provide programming. Once WCW was under the Turner Organization these payments went away and WCW losses were offset by the gain in revenues of TBS.

Eric Bischoff was the first guy smart enough to realize that this was insane so he talked TBS into signing some of the bigger stars to contracts to make the WCW Books look better.

After WCW lost $60 Million the AOL-TW brass decided it was time to unload WCW. They were fine with selling WCW but then they realized, if we sell WCW and keep it on TV we're going to have to pay the new owner for the programming. The WWF-Viacom deal was in the $30 million dollar range at approx. $550,000 per week. So a WCW-TBS deal would be in the same ball park. Not sure what TBS was offering in terms of multi year deals but if Fuscient but if they were selling WCW for $100 Million and giving Fuscient a 5 year deal they were technically going to pay WCW $25 million to go away.

This is why the decided to pull the plug on the programming. The only company willing to put WCW on air was the USA Network but they an upfront bond that would guarentee the programming.
See, that's where you're wrong, brother.


In it's 13 year existence, WCW only had 2 profitable years. As a matter of fact, they lost $20 million in the first 4 years after the Turner buyout.

I have the Observer from 1992-1993 that mentions how WCW had lost $20 million since 1988 and that was what lead to them trying something different and bringing Bischoff in, despite Bischoff losing money his first 2 years in charge.
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Old 02-08-2013, 03:27 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Default Re: Why did WCW Fail

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See, that's where you're wrong, brother.


In it's 13 year existence, WCW only had 2 profitable years. As a matter of fact, they lost $20 million in the first 4 years after the Turner buyout.

I have the Observer from 1992-1993 that mentions how WCW had lost $20 million since 1988 and that was what lead to them trying something different and bringing Bischoff in, despite Bischoff losing money his first 2 years in charge.

Do you know how TV is run? Do you really believe the MLB and NFL teams lose millions of dollars? It's all accounting. If WCW actually lost money they'd would have shut the thing down along time ago or restructure it to something profitable.

WCW lost money because they were never viewed as a seperate organization under the Turner Umbrella. But WCW Programming made Turner Money because it had decent ratings, that money never went back to WCW and they were allowed to opperate at a loss.

Turner had 3 options.
1. Keep things as is
2. Have TBS pay WCW for Programing or TV Expenses
3. Close down TBS and order more Syndicated Shows that don't pull the ratings WCW does.

I'm not sure on the contract #'s today but when the WWF/E went to Spike they were getting $30 Million from Viacom.

Here's how things work with WCW and WWF/E

WCW (Expenses)
TV cost $20 million to make
Wrestlers Salaries $30 Million
Misc (Travel, Advertising, Etc)$10 Million
Total: $60 Million

(Profits)
PPV: $25 Million
Live Events: $10 Million
Merchandise: $5 Million
Total $40 Million

= Loss of $20 Million

TBS/TNT = NITRO/THUNDER ADVERTISING REVENUE $50 Million


WWF/E (Expenses)
TV cost $20 million to make
Wrestlers Salaries $15 Million
Misc (Travel, Advertising, Etc)$10 Million
Total: $45 Million

(Profits)
PPV: $30 Million
Live Events: $20 Million
Merchandise: $10 Million
TV Deal with Network: $30 Million
Total $90 Million

Profit = $45 Million

VIACOM or NBC Universal = RAW/SMACKDOWN ADVERTISING REVENUE $50 Million


Did you ever wonder why a bunch of WCW were signed to deals with TBS rather than WCW?

That was to clean up WCW's books.

If WCW was really losing money early on do you think Time Warner would have allowed it. They allowed it because WCW was providing TBS with free programming.

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Old 02-08-2013, 03:35 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Default Re: Why did WCW Fail

Do your research, between 1988 and 1992, WCW lost $20 million. It's been said by nearly everybody in the know that they only made money during the NWO years.


And what does anything you just said have to do with my post? Do I need to post the article from Meltzer himself?
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Old 02-08-2013, 03:59 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Default Re: Why did WCW Fail

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Originally Posted by Deandre Cole View Post
Do your research, between 1988 and 1992, WCW lost $20 million. It's been said by nearly everybody in the know that they only made money during the NWO years.


And what does anything you just said have to do with my post? Do I need to post the article from Meltzer himself?


If you look at a profit and loss statement yes WCW lost money. Because TBS didn't pay them.

Do you understand anything about accounting? It's very easy to make a company look like a loser or winner if you have several companies and 1 of them is succesful. WCW wasn't allowed to negotiate a TV deal with anyone but TURNER.

When WCW started making money it was because they were getting more people into the arenas, selling more merchandise, the larger contracts were off the WCW books, and the PPV numbers were better.

TIME WARNER took over TURNER in 1996. Do you think TIME WARNER would allow a company to lose money? They lost money but at the same time WCW made TBS money.

Ask Dave Metzler how much TBS paid WCW for programming?

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Old 02-08-2013, 04:18 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Default Re: Why did WCW Fail

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Originally Posted by Deandre Cole View Post
Do your research, between 1988 and 1992, WCW lost $20 million. It's been said by nearly everybody in the know that they only made money during the NWO years.


And what does anything you just said have to do with my post? Do I need to post the article from Meltzer himself?
Because you're probably a kid I'll make this easy for you to understand.

You have a lemonade stand.

TBS-WCW:
Kid World: You sell 20 cups of Lemonade for $1.00 each = You just made $20 dollars. Congrats


USA Network- WWE
Adult World: You sell 20 cups of Lemonade for $1.00 each = You just made $20 dollars. However you have to pay your parents the costs of Lemmons, Sugar, Water,Cups which was $10.00.

You just made $10.00.

TBS didn't pay WCW the costs of filming the episodes. So WCW was losing $300 to $400 K a week

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Old 02-08-2013, 04:57 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Default Re: Why did WCW Fail

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Originally Posted by IRISHwhip78 View Post
If you look at a profit and loss statement yes WCW lost money. Because TBS didn't pay them.

Do you understand anything about accounting? It's very easy to make a company look like a loser or winner if you have several companies and 1 of them is succesful. WCW wasn't allowed to negotiate a TV deal with anyone but TURNER.

When WCW started making money it was because they were getting more people into the arenas, selling more merchandise, the larger contracts were off the WCW books, and the PPV numbers were better.
What does any of this have to do with what I said?

Oh yeah, I guess Bill Watts, Jim Cornette and Barry Windham, 3 guys who worked for WCW in the early years, are wrong and you're right.

TBS didn't pay them? Are you serious? Turner was tossing around guranteed contracts like candy in the early 90s. He hired Jim Herd, who didn't know shit about wrestling. Fired him and brought in Kip Frey, a lawyer, who knew even less about wrestling. Then, they brought in Watts, who fucked things up even worse by taping weeks worth of matches and angles in Orlando just to cut expenses (but he did cut the losses down). They fired him because too many of the talents complained and some alleged racist/homophobic comments he made.


Quote:
As we discussed last week, Bill Watts was largely brought into WCW in May to improve the bottom line. The company had bled red ink for nearly four years and the men in charge, Bill Shaw and Bob Dhue, had decided the inevitable day of reckoning had come. Clearly, in the current economic climate, with all aspects of wrestling interest and income on the decline, the best one could hope for is to tread water or slightly increase the total revenue for the company.
Wrestling Observer---September 21, 1992

Get out of the Monday Night Wars bubble, let's talk about WCW history, back when they had no Monday night show. Ratings were down, attendance were down. Whatever revenue they make from PPV is being split with Turner Home Entertainment, with THE taking a large chunk of it for covering the production expenses. In 1990 ALONE, WCW had 5 talents with guranteed contracts totaling over $3 million a year. Why you think Herd tried to cut Flair, Hawk & Animal's pay in half? Same thing happened to the Steiner Brothers 2 years later.


Based on everything I've said and posted, the only way I'm wrong is if Watts, Windham, Cornette and Meltzer are wrong, considering all of this information came from those guys. And it's the same story, WCW didn't make money until 1-2 years after Bischoff started and not because WCW didn't pay them but because attendance was down, Saturday night ratings hit an all time low and nobody was buying the PPV's. Not to mention their pension for throwing out 6 figures for mini movies that people in the company even shitted on at the time.
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Old 02-08-2013, 05:09 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Default Re: Why did WCW Fail

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Originally Posted by IRISHwhip78 View Post
TIME WARNER took over TURNER in 1996. Do you think TIME WARNER would allow a company to lose money? They lost money but at the same time WCW made TBS money.

Ask Dave Metzler how much TBS paid WCW for programming?
You're basing your whole argument on 1996?


I'M TALKING ABOUT THE HISTORY OF WCW, 1988-2001!!!!


When Time Warner took over, WCW was making money. That has jack shit to do with the previous 8 years, when they, for the most part, LOST MONEY.


And obviously, WCW made TBS money. If you do your fucking research, it was said all along that Turner didn't mind spending money on WCW because it made money for his network, by way of advertising.


At this point, it is what it is. I'm quoting Meltzer and people who, unlike us, actually worked in the fucking company, a few of them in front office and all share the same sentiments that for the most part between 1988 and 1995, WCW was losing money.


You're comparing the sales of lemonade to the structure of a global empire? Use any analogy you want, I'm just repeating what those who were there have been saying for years.
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Old 02-08-2013, 05:17 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Default Re: Why did WCW Fail

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What does any of this have to do with what I said?

Oh yeah, I guess Bill Watts, Jim Cornette and Barry Windham, 3 guys who worked for WCW in the early years, are wrong and you're right.

TBS didn't pay them? Are you serious? Turner was tossing around guranteed contracts like candy in the early 90s. He hired Jim Herd, who didn't know shit about wrestling. Fired him and brought in Kip Frey, a lawyer, who knew even less about wrestling. Then, they brought in Watts, who fucked things up even worse by taping weeks worth of matches and angles in Orlando just to cut expenses (but he did cut the losses down). They fired him because too many of the talents complained and some alleged racist/homophobic comments he made.




Wrestling Observer---September 21, 1992

Get out of the Monday Night Wars bubble, let's talk about WCW history, back when they had no Monday night show. Ratings were down, attendance were down. Whatever revenue they make from PPV is being split with Turner Home Entertainment, with THE taking a large chunk of it for covering the production expenses. In 1990 ALONE, WCW had 5 talents with guranteed contracts totaling over $3 million a year. Why you think Herd tried to cut Flair, Hawk & Animal's pay in half? Same thing happened to the Steiner Brothers 2 years later.


Based on everything I've said and posted, the only way I'm wrong is if Watts, Windham, Cornette and Meltzer are wrong, considering all of this information came from those guys. And it's the same story, WCW didn't make money until 1-2 years after Bischoff started and not because WCW didn't pay them but because attendance was down, Saturday night ratings hit an all time low and nobody was buying the PPV's. Not to mention their pension for throwing out 6 figures for mini movies that people in the company even shitted on at the time.
Thanks for helping prove my point.
WCW was splitting PPV Costs with THE.
WCW wasn't getting paid by TBS.

If WCW was run by someone else they can shop the Video Rights for PPV's to someone else. Instead THE got the money for releasing the PPV Videos.

TBS would have had to compete with someone else for the rights to broadcast WCW programming.

Yes WCW was losing money, but in the grand scheme of things they were making and saving other Turner Businesses Millions.
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