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Old 02-03-2013, 07:36 AM   #41 (permalink)
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Default Re: How come we never saw Hogan vs Bret Hart?

Luger is an interesting case. It kind of seems like Hogan accepted him. I imagine it had to do with two main factors: his ability to keep him in check, and his physique. I guess you could see it as him burying Luger, but I see it almost as a mark of respect that he dropped the belt to Luger, albeit for just a few days. Consider all the others he didn’t even want to face (Hart, DDP), let alone give them any kind of a rub. I think it would be interesting to hear either of them talk about it. Personally, from what I’ve heard of Hogan, you think he’d hold some kind of grudge against the man WWF were grooming to be the next American hero. Again, that’s only if you see his actions as a rather crazy sort of acceptance. Kind of like a father who beats his kids, but beats one a little less.

As for Bret Hart, it’s the same no matter why he held him down. I can’t imagine Hogan liking someone who threatens his position, nor can I imagine someone he doesn’t like being in a threatening position. Hogan had the pull, and he was going to show it. I can’t imagine anyone other than Hogan being the chief architect of some of these turns. Bret Hart was especially odd because he was in the process of taking the nWo down “brick by brick”… and WCW were still trying to find a place for one of WWF’s biggest pieces. It ruined any chance of pushing him. Oddly enough, I think the haphazard style of his booking really added something to the story of the nWo. I’m sure for a while he was the only nWo member to not wear nWo garments. It was almost as though he was using the nWo (an angle they really should have explored). This was prior to them labeling him ‘head recruiter’. At the time of Bret’s turn, Goldberg was feuding with Saturn. It’s hardly a springboard to the WHC. Who knew Hogan would wake up one morning and agree to put Goldberg mega-over on Nitro? I certainly think if Hogan refused to do this over the course of the year, Goldberg would have fizzled out. There would have been nowhere for him to guy. Think about how much the Starrcade 1997 ME hurt Sting. He lost a great deal of credibility for being beaten by Hogan in what was quite clearly a clean count.

Finally, I’m sure you realise that the majority of WCW fans hated Savage in the nWo. They felt it was unnecessary. I’m kind of going against my point that he was absorbed – but I always thought he was an excellent fit. Having said that, I can appreciate the fact that most felt he could have gone toe-to-toe with the nWo a little longer, at least until it was clear how far he could have progressed as one of the main stars opposing the faction.
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Old 02-04-2013, 01:41 AM   #42 (permalink)
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Default Re: How come we never saw Hogan vs Bret Hart?

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Originally Posted by Mike Zybyszko View Post
Bullshit with a capital SHIT. I was actually alive and watched back then. Nobody in Wrestling since Austin and Rock even comes close to the midcard of the 80s and early 90s WWF.

As I have often said, take Cena right now and put him back in time to the 1984-1990 era and Cena would be no higher level than Jim Powers or Paul Roma. We actually demanded a good, quality product in those days, and Vince delivered.

Just why do you think it is that Vince has to reach back in time and call back the big stars of previous eras to pop buy rates and spike ratings? It's exactly because the modern "superstars" are shit compared to previous eras.
I was actually alive and watched back then as well. No matter how I feel about Cena personally, to say something like that is just outrageous. I regret not being the first one to be able to call you out on it. In all honesty the mid card was great but not as far away from where it is today as many people love to complain about.

We demand a good, quality product now in these days, and it is the same now as it was then: Vince does as he damn well pleases. It was so much easier to be a mark back then without the internet, and everyone who was alive and a fan without the IWC back then knows it.

And as for bringing back old Superstars? Please. That is a tried and true formula for any form of entertainment. What CSI fan wouldn't love to see Grissom back? What viewer of Hawaii 5-O wouldn't watch Jack Lord (if it were possible) do a cameo? What sports fan would love to see one of their team's all time greats come back to be honored for something? That kind of thing happens all the ime.
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Old 02-04-2013, 01:48 AM   #43 (permalink)
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Default Re: How come we never saw Hogan vs Bret Hart?

Hogans backstage games. If he did put someone over he always tried to somehow get the spotlight back on himself. Its crazy that even in 2002 he felt he shoudlve still been booked as the top man over the current top guys in WWE
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Old 02-04-2013, 01:51 AM   #44 (permalink)
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Default Re: How come we never saw Hogan vs Bret Hart?

It is really sad that there was backstage gaming going on, but I really wanted that match actually. I remember WWF Magazine had an article talking about the potential match and even did comparisons of the two to see how they would match up, so I'm sure it had been discussed to do Hogan Vs. Bret for the title. But no....no.
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Old 02-04-2013, 08:47 AM   #45 (permalink)
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Default Re: How come we never saw Hogan vs Bret Hart?

Hogan was interested in protecting Hulkamania at all costs. His ability to do so, even when he couldn't guarantee financial success, is the key point to how two of the biggest wrestling companies of all time booked their shows.


I do find it weird that McMahon was totally about going forward in some shape, form or fashion even with Hogan on the roster. I think Vince saw Hogan's financial abilities dwindling and decided to push Hogan to the margins (he still needed to use his name to help the push forward thus a rush tag match at Wrestlemania 9) but he was looking to replace Hogan by the end of 1993. Vince showed it wasn't personal because he did the same to Randy Savage in 1994, it was just 8-9 years of Hulkamania and then Hogan admitting to using steroids was enough...of course the killing blow was that Hogan no longer drastically effected business is central to McMahon wanting a new star.


Bret was not a high priority for Vince, he never really was. He was constantly looking to replace Bret. Luger, Diesel, HBK, Undertaker, time and time again Vince decided to push other guys over Bret (it may have been partially because of Bret's age) but he ended up going back to him for various reasons. Vince didn't trust Bret, probably never did and thus he welcomed things that he could cut Bret out of.
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Old 02-05-2013, 05:06 AM   #46 (permalink)
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Default Re: How come we never saw Hogan vs Bret Hart?

A couple key things I want to point out.


After Wrestlemania 8, Hogan took a hiatus from the company. There was a post Wrestlemania press conference that he supposedly refused to attend. Furthermore, the buyrate was down 25% from the previous Wrestlemania, which Hogan felt might have hurt his image and portrayed him as not being as big of a draw as he once was.

Because it was known before Mania that Hogan was taking the summer off (which turned out to be nearly an entire year), as well as Piper, Ultimate Warrior was brought back, as he was WWF's second top drawing babyface for the prior several years. The plan from there was to go towards a Warrior/Flair program, taking place after Flair regained the title in September.

So, the early runs of Warrior/Flair drew rather weak houses and it was said that Warrior was unhappy with his program with Flair. And Vince needed the title on a top babyface. Bret Hart, on a European tour, received a bigger reaction than anyone else, so the last minute decision was made to push him.

During all of this, house show attendance and TV ratings were down. Furthermore, the allegations made regarding Hogan's steroid & cocaine use, drug dealing accusations and the like, became more present due to Dr. D David Shultz and "Superstar" Billy Graham. Hogan chose not to speak on the matter and hid from the spotlight, until arranging a meeting with Vince in late 1992.

In November of 1992, Warrior quit the WWF, about 17 days before the Survivor Series match with Savage vs. Flair and Razor, with no explanation given. It was said that Warrior was supposed to be the focal point of Wrestlemania (possibly winning the title). With Bret as champion, business didn't totally increase and things were really starting to look bad. In a span of 8 months, WWF lost Hogan, Piper, Bulldog, The Legion Of Doom and Jake Roberts, as well has Ric Flair being injured and Undertaker missing a nice amount of time with a shoulder injury. It also needs to be said that guys like Legion Of Doom, Hogan, Sid, Warrior, Bulldog, Warlord and Barbarian, among others, left when the steroid accusations became more prevalent.

So, in January 1993, it was revealed Hogan was returning to WWF for a match at Wrestlemania 9 with Beefcake against Money, Inc. Partly, the reason for his return was to re-solidify himself as a big deal in wrestling, before the release of Mr. Nanny in June. Not to mention, Hogan had shot a pilot that he hoped to be picked up.

It's also said that Hogan only agreed to come back if he worked even less dates and received a run with the title. Furthermore, the low buyrate of Royal Rumble 1993 was proof that life without Hogan wasn't working well for WWF, not to mention, Bret wasn't the big draw like they had with Hogan & Warrior. So, the decision was made to give Hogan the title.

In April, shortly after Mania, Bret Hart cut a promo, saying his hit list consisted of Lex Luger, Yokozuna and Hulk Hogan. Word going around was that Hogan had no interest in putting Bret over.

In May, Hogan worked a match with Great Muta in IWGP. Afterwards at a press conference, he compared the WWF Title to a Honda and the IWGP Title to a Rolls Royce. He further bragged that the WWF Title was easy to win and the IWGP Title was hard to win (he was the first ever IWGP champion), basically burying WWF in the process. Furthermore, as of May, the idea was certainly presented for Bret/Hogan at Summerslam.

Instead, Hogan dropped the belt to Yokozuna at KOTR. It was said when Hogan cut the interview in Japan, he know then he would be dropping the belt to Yokozuna, so tried to downplay it, as if the title meant nothing to him.

Hogan pulls himself from all future events and a few weeks after KOTR, officially leaves WWF. But the thing people don't understand is, at that time, Hogan had a movie just released in theatres, as well as a television pilot he was hoping to get picked up (which eventually did). Business was down in WWF, as no show headlined by Hogan did as expected, which in turn could have affected his potential in Hollywood, as it would make him seem like he was not a draw.


Furthermore, as good as Bret Hart was all the way back in 1993, he wasn't a successful draw stateside, nor was he ever, between 1992-1993, WWF's choice as the top guy. Hogan bailed twice, Warrior quit/got fired, Piper disappeared, Savage was phased out. They really lacked any main event babyface presence but needed 1 to carry the title and he was the only choice. When revenue didn't increase, Hogan was brought back in. When revenue still didn't increase, there was no point in going directly back to Bret, so they went with Lex Luger, who they thought would be the next incarnation of Hogan but he wasn't.



My personal opinion is that Hogan didn't deem Bret as a big draw but Hogan wasn't necessarily selling out shows in 1993 either. The match would have been big from a fans standpoint but unless it would have resulted in Hogan going over, Hogan felt it would just lessen his status in wrestling and affect his Hollywood potential.

I doubt Vince was even fully behind Hogan/Bret, simply because Hogan's drawing power wasn't what it used to be and Bret was far from being a proven draw. In this case, I place equal blame on both guys. I blame Hogan for having such a huge ego and I blame Bret for getting uptight about not getting a match with a guy who rightfully shouldn't have been expected to job. And even more so, likely neither man would have been in the main event if Warrior didn't leave in November, as he was planned to be the focal point, was the second biggest draw and was possibly going to win the belt (although Flair leaving probably would have prevented that from happening).
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Old 02-05-2013, 05:19 PM   #47 (permalink)
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Default Re: How come we never saw Hogan vs Bret Hart?

regardless of your opinion on bret, he always delivered good matches hogan on the other hand... meh, very 1 dimensional in my opinion anyway
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Old 02-05-2013, 06:52 PM   #48 (permalink)
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Default Re: How come we never saw Hogan vs Bret Hart?

Because both men probably didn't want to do the job.
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Old 02-06-2013, 10:30 AM   #49 (permalink)
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Default Re: How come we never saw Hogan vs Bret Hart?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deandre Cole View Post
A couple key things I want to point out.


After Wrestlemania 8, Hogan took a hiatus from the company. There was a post Wrestlemania press conference that he supposedly refused to attend. Furthermore, the buyrate was down 25% from the previous Wrestlemania, which Hogan felt might have hurt his image and portrayed him as not being as big of a draw as he once was.

Because it was known before Mania that Hogan was taking the summer off (which turned out to be nearly an entire year), as well as Piper, Ultimate Warrior was brought back, as he was WWF's second top drawing babyface for the prior several years. The plan from there was to go towards a Warrior/Flair program, taking place after Flair regained the title in September.

So, the early runs of Warrior/Flair drew rather weak houses and it was said that Warrior was unhappy with his program with Flair. And Vince needed the title on a top babyface. Bret Hart, on a European tour, received a bigger reaction than anyone else, so the last minute decision was made to push him.

During all of this, house show attendance and TV ratings were down. Furthermore, the allegations made regarding Hogan's steroid & cocaine use, drug dealing accusations and the like, became more present due to Dr. D David Shultz and "Superstar" Billy Graham. Hogan chose not to speak on the matter and hid from the spotlight, until arranging a meeting with Vince in late 1992.

In November of 1992, Warrior quit the WWF, about 17 days before the Survivor Series match with Savage vs. Flair and Razor, with no explanation given. It was said that Warrior was supposed to be the focal point of Wrestlemania (possibly winning the title). With Bret as champion, business didn't totally increase and things were really starting to look bad. In a span of 8 months, WWF lost Hogan, Piper, Bulldog, The Legion Of Doom and Jake Roberts, as well has Ric Flair being injured and Undertaker missing a nice amount of time with a shoulder injury. It also needs to be said that guys like Legion Of Doom, Hogan, Sid, Warrior, Bulldog, Warlord and Barbarian, among others, left when the steroid accusations became more prevalent.

So, in January 1993, it was revealed Hogan was returning to WWF for a match at Wrestlemania 9 with Beefcake against Money, Inc. Partly, the reason for his return was to re-solidify himself as a big deal in wrestling, before the release of Mr. Nanny in June. Not to mention, Hogan had shot a pilot that he hoped to be picked up.

It's also said that Hogan only agreed to come back if he worked even less dates and received a run with the title. Furthermore, the low buyrate of Royal Rumble 1993 was proof that life without Hogan wasn't working well for WWF, not to mention, Bret wasn't the big draw like they had with Hogan & Warrior. So, the decision was made to give Hogan the title.

In April, shortly after Mania, Bret Hart cut a promo, saying his hit list consisted of Lex Luger, Yokozuna and Hulk Hogan. Word going around was that Hogan had no interest in putting Bret over.

In May, Hogan worked a match with Great Muta in IWGP. Afterwards at a press conference, he compared the WWF Title to a Honda and the IWGP Title to a Rolls Royce. He further bragged that the WWF Title was easy to win and the IWGP Title was hard to win (he was the first ever IWGP champion), basically burying WWF in the process. Furthermore, as of May, the idea was certainly presented for Bret/Hogan at Summerslam.

Instead, Hogan dropped the belt to Yokozuna at KOTR. It was said when Hogan cut the interview in Japan, he know then he would be dropping the belt to Yokozuna, so tried to downplay it, as if the title meant nothing to him.

Hogan pulls himself from all future events and a few weeks after KOTR, officially leaves WWF. But the thing people don't understand is, at that time, Hogan had a movie just released in theatres, as well as a television pilot he was hoping to get picked up (which eventually did). Business was down in WWF, as no show headlined by Hogan did as expected, which in turn could have affected his potential in Hollywood, as it would make him seem like he was not a draw.


Furthermore, as good as Bret Hart was all the way back in 1993, he wasn't a successful draw stateside, nor was he ever, between 1992-1993, WWF's choice as the top guy. Hogan bailed twice, Warrior quit/got fired, Piper disappeared, Savage was phased out. They really lacked any main event babyface presence but needed 1 to carry the title and he was the only choice. When revenue didn't increase, Hogan was brought back in. When revenue still didn't increase, there was no point in going directly back to Bret, so they went with Lex Luger, who they thought would be the next incarnation of Hogan but he wasn't.



My personal opinion is that Hogan didn't deem Bret as a big draw but Hogan wasn't necessarily selling out shows in 1993 either. The match would have been big from a fans standpoint but unless it would have resulted in Hogan going over, Hogan felt it would just lessen his status in wrestling and affect his Hollywood potential.

I doubt Vince was even fully behind Hogan/Bret, simply because Hogan's drawing power wasn't what it used to be and Bret was far from being a proven draw. In this case, I place equal blame on both guys. I blame Hogan for having such a huge ego and I blame Bret for getting uptight about not getting a match with a guy who rightfully shouldn't have been expected to job. And even more so, likely neither man would have been in the main event if Warrior didn't leave in November, as he was planned to be the focal point, was the second biggest draw and was possibly going to win the belt (although Flair leaving probably would have prevented that from happening).
I totally agree with everything there, except for Hogan demanding the title. I simply don't believe any of that stuff. I rather think it might be him comming up with that suggestion and McMahon went along with it.
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Old 02-06-2013, 03:09 PM   #50 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Berkajr View Post
I totally agree with everything there, except for Hogan demanding the title. I simply don't believe any of that stuff. I rather think it might be him comming up with that suggestion and McMahon went along with it.
Hogan didn't exactly demand the title but the feeling was that business would increase if he had the title.

Not to mention, Warrior was supposed to main event Mania, as a heel against Hogan but was fired/quit, which was how Bret got the title, as Vince wanted the belt on a babyface and 3 of his biggest babyfaces (Hogan, Warrior, Piper) weren't around at the time, Savage was working less and less and Taker didn't return until after Bret won the belt.

So when Bret didn't boost business, the deal was made to Hogan. When business still failed to improve, Hogan quit. And that alone makes me feel the match was never going to happen, as Hogan's return did not improve ratings or buyrates and could potentially damage his image in Hollywood.

Keep in mind he quit less than 2 weeks after KOTR.

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