Analyze This: Hardcore Respect - Wrestling Forum : WWE, TNA, Debate League, Wrestling Videos, Women of Wrestling Forums
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Old 11-29-2012, 06:39 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Analyze This: Hardcore Respect

"I do not care how many thumbtacks Mick Foley has fallen on, how many ladders he's fallen off, how many continents he's supposedly bled on, he will always be known as a glorified stuntman." - Flair on Foley.

This also happens to be one of the most common perception of wrestlers following hardcore style starting from The Sheik to Foley to people-who-have-not-seen-vintage Funk.

Instead of being acknowledged as one of the styles of wrestling that depends more on stuntwork, blood, pain and shock value to in-ring technical work, moveset and holds, it is generally being looked down upon.

Do you see Hardcore wrestling with respect as one of the schools/styles of wrestling? Who is your favorite hardcore style wrestler?
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Old 11-29-2012, 07:01 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Analyze This: Hardcore Respect

I agree with Flair to a point, not about Foley but hardcore wrestling in general. Extreme wrestling took out the art of wrestling, working a crowd, storytelling and replaced it with people getting hit with chairs for no rhyme or reason. It is sort of the same way I feel about indy wrestling a lot of the time, it is just spot after spot, when it isn't contributing to developing the story of the match, but is just put in there for no reason.

In the case of Mick Foley, he was much more than just a stuntman, his matches in the WWF told a story, his characters told stories and he contributed a whole lot to the attitude era. Those tough, extreme guys are sometimes needed to give legitimacy to the product and other wrestlers. Look at what Foley did for HBK, HHH, The Rock. He gave them much needed legitimacy.

I thought ECW was probably the closest thing to an extreme wrestling promotion that I found bearable. I have tried watching CZW and XPW, but I just can't get through the matches. A hardcore match is supposed to be the end of a feud, when they hate each other so much that only a hardcore match or street fight is suitable to end it.

I remember Paul Heyman saying that ECW's style was used to enhance the positives of his workers and hide the negatives. And I think that is what hardcore wrestling has become, guys who maybe aren't as athletic or great on the mic or have good in-ring psychology can use hardcore to cover up their flaws. But then again it doesn't explain for guys like Terry Funk, who were great in other aspects of wrestling, maybe that was just his personal preference.

Mick Foley is my favourite 'hardcore' wrestler, because he was great at every aspect of wrestling and then his added hardcore was just another element. I hate when people call Mick Foley a hardcore legend, he is a legend full-stop, not just a hardcore legend.
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Old 11-29-2012, 01:29 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Analyze This: Hardcore Respect

Mick Foley is one of the greatest mic workers in the history of the business, this alone, without even taking into consideration his in-ring storytelling ability means that calling him a 'Glorified stuntman' is ignorant and incorrect. It just proves what a twat Flair is.
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Old 11-30-2012, 01:32 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Analyze This: Hardcore Respect

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Gorgeous One View Post
I agree with Flair to a point, not about Foley but hardcore wrestling in general. Extreme wrestling took out the art of wrestling, working a crowd, storytelling and replaced it with people getting hit with chairs for no rhyme or reason. It is sort of the same way I feel about indy wrestling a lot of the time, it is just spot after spot, when it isn't contributing to developing the story of the match, but is just put in there for no reason.

In the case of Mick Foley, he was much more than just a stuntman, his matches in the WWF told a story, his characters told stories and he contributed a whole lot to the attitude era. Those tough, extreme guys are sometimes needed to give legitimacy to the product and other wrestlers. Look at what Foley did for HBK, HHH, The Rock. He gave them much needed legitimacy.

I thought ECW was probably the closest thing to an extreme wrestling promotion that I found bearable. I have tried watching CZW and XPW, but I just can't get through the matches. A hardcore match is supposed to be the end of a feud, when they hate each other so much that only a hardcore match or street fight is suitable to end it.

I remember Paul Heyman saying that ECW's style was used to enhance the positives of his workers and hide the negatives. And I think that is what hardcore wrestling has become, guys who maybe aren't as athletic or great on the mic or have good in-ring psychology can use hardcore to cover up their flaws. But then again it doesn't explain for guys like Terry Funk, who were great in other aspects of wrestling, maybe that was just his personal preference.

Mick Foley is my favourite 'hardcore' wrestler, because he was great at every aspect of wrestling and then his added hardcore was just another element. I hate when people call Mick Foley a hardcore legend, he is a legend full-stop, not just a hardcore legend.
Yes, it is not something new either for Gold Dust Trio got in Zbysko to legitimize Munn, their champion but did not work out as planned. Hardcore wrestling also opened avenues for non-wrestlers who were tough guys to put a show that was entertaining without having to put an effort to learn the technical stuff. Not sure why Funk turned to hardcore but must have been some injuries as the case was always to make him change his style.
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Old 11-30-2012, 01:59 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Analyze This: Hardcore Respect

I can get into hardcore as long as it has a purpose, like being utilized at the end of a long, intense feud. Hardcore just for the sake of it has never done much for me. I do like the old ECW but I tend to veer towards the pure wrestlers of that company, such as Malenko, Guerrero, Jerry Lynn, RVD and Lance Storm. Where it really gets too much for me is the ultraviolent style such as CZW and Big Japan. Most of that stuff is just done for the spectacle and is meaningless. Give me a 30 minute wrestling match that tells a story any day. I can watch ultraviolence but it is not my preference. I don't think it takes much skill at all to cut yourself and your opponent with glass and barbwire. It takes a shitload of skill to pull off a long match filled with psychology, counters and storytelling. Wrestling is about protecting yourself and your opponent and entertaining the crowd at the same time. Intentionally maiming yourself and your opponent doesn't impress me.
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Old 11-30-2012, 06:54 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Analyze This: Hardcore Respect

IMO, it is a physically and mentally tougher style to work. You have to be able to take the pain, you have to know how to deliver one of those chair shots or taking a bump in barbed wire so to not really fuck up the opponent or yourself.. I personally find the hardcore style and the aerial style to be the most dangerous but should also be the most respected, simply because of what those guys go through and risk for the sake of sending fans home happy.

@septrum

If you watch your typical indy bloodbath, not much there. But, if you look back at the battles between Raven/Dreamer, those guys told a story. They wouldn't just hit each other with shit just for kicks, it all served a purpose and in the end, put their feud over as even more intense.

Which leads me to say that my favorite hardcore wrestler is Tommy Dreamer. He made hardcore matches mean something, along with Raven, Sandman, Foley & Terry Funk. It's guys like Zandig and Ian Rotten who took it too far and made it mean less & less to hit a guy with a chair.



And for the record, Raven/Dreamer, Valentine/Piper, Dusty/Tully, that was hardcore wrestling. The shit CZW, XPW and all those indy companies do is NOT hardcore wrestling.

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Old 11-30-2012, 08:32 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Analyze This: Hardcore Respect

Quote:
Originally Posted by septurum View Post
I can get into hardcore as long as it has a purpose, like being utilized at the end of a long, intense feud. Hardcore just for the sake of it has never done much for me. I do like the old ECW but I tend to veer towards the pure wrestlers of that company, such as Malenko, Guerrero, Jerry Lynn, RVD and Lance Storm. Where it really gets too much for me is the ultraviolent style such as CZW and Big Japan. Most of that stuff is just done for the spectacle and is meaningless. Give me a 30 minute wrestling match that tells a story any day. I can watch ultraviolence but it is not my preference. I don't think it takes much skill at all to cut yourself and your opponent with glass and barbwire. It takes a shitload of skill to pull off a long match filled with psychology, counters and storytelling. Wrestling is about protecting yourself and your opponent and entertaining the crowd at the same time. Intentionally maiming yourself and your opponent doesn't impress me.
I agree with you completely. I like the hardcore style in moderation, when it's blended into actual wrestling. CZW is some of the most stupid and talentless stuff I have ever seen. I don't care how many times Necro Butcher got hit with a light tube. How about a damn suplex?
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Old 11-30-2012, 09:12 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Analyze This: Hardcore Respect

I got the utmost respect for the hardcore guys. I don't know how can you not if you've watched things like Great Muta vs Great Nita, Terry Funk vs Cactus Jack or Raven's stuff.
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Old 11-30-2012, 11:00 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Analyze This: Hardcore Respect

On the subject of the "hardcore style":
I'm not exactly sure I would call "hardcore" a style. I think its more of a match type. "Hardcore" is something anyone can do, but only legitimate tough guys choose to do it. Guys who only work the "hardcore" type are probably guys that shouldn't be in the business at all because they can't really work. Its easier to take a chair to the head than to exchange holds that's for damn sure but taking a chair to the head takes more balls.
.......
I think "hardcore" has a place in the business, a big place. People like intensity, people like seeing guys be tough, in fact tough guys are what people want to see, it brings some realism to the product, it brings/adds drama to a feud but unnecessary violence is makes the product look cartoonish and gimmicky. To the point that people appreciate guts, even without the thumbtacks and fire, just doing crazy stunts period can get a guy over immensely. Look at how many stars the ladder match produced and that match is fairly mild in comparison to the stuff ECW did. Its because it takes artistry and guts to make that work, that's the place hardcore has in the business.
......
Favorite "hardcore" wrestler:
Foley is probably the front runner but I would say RVD or Edge as well. Foley is by far the most dynamic performer because he has a higher level of legitimacy, his mic work is superior and he can bring comedy, drama, and fear into one match. He's an artist with that match type, that must be appreciated.
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Old 11-30-2012, 11:13 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Analyze This: Hardcore Respect

But, was RVD/Edge typical hardcore wrestlers?


I guess in a sense they are, due to the use of TLC.


Also, I'd like to point out that with Edge & Randy Orton, hardcore matches really put them in a different light, as early in their careers, you wouldn't have expected either man to be hit with barbed wire or bump in thumbtacks. In some cases, taking a typical wrestler and placing him in a hardcore setting can do wonders for his career and how he's perceived among hardcore, blood thirsty fans.
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