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-   -   Analyze This: Greatest of All Times (http://www.wrestlingforum.com/classic-wrestling/643972-analyze-greatest-all-times.html)

theidealstranger 11-17-2012 07:25 AM

Analyze This: Greatest of All Times
 
Before the start, please do not bring in names and make this a debate why a wrestler A or B is great or not. This is about the bigger picture where I want to open a discussion on what is the generally accepted and your individual criteria for calling someone Greatest of All Times in pro-wrestling in your opinion and since when did business and drawing became a criteria for Greatness overshadowing in ring talent and entertainment factor?

To me, Greatness criteria include the following:
  • In Ring Ability
  • Promo Skills
  • Ring Psychology/Storytelling
  • Gimmick/Character performance
  • Longevity (A one year run as a great entertainer is not enough for me to call someone G.O.A.T)

P.S: Please do not make this a A vs B discussion and keep it generic.

The Gorgeous One 11-17-2012 07:51 AM

Re: Analyze This: Greatest of All Times
 
This is a question? Of course it is. Wrestling is a business, part of a business is making money. Therefore putting the most butts in seats and attracting the most people to watch you is part of what wrestling is. It always has been, in wrestling to wrestlers and promoters, drawing money is the most important thing, you can be the greatest in-ring, greatest on the mic and all the other things you said, but if you can't draw a god damn dime, you aren't going to be at the top very long for any promoter. I do agree with the rest of your criteria, maybe not so much on in-ring as I believe it is ridiculously overrated by internet fans, but I do believe you need to add drawing power to that list.

Dusty Roids 11-17-2012 09:12 AM

Re: Analyze This: Greatest of All Times
 
this is why verne gagne failed to run as a national promoter, he had hulk hogan but didn't push him to the max. Instead he wanted an inring technician as champion, he gave away the best babyface draw to vince mcmmahon who went national shortly after.

Patrick Bateman 11-17-2012 09:16 AM

Re: Analyze This: Greatest of All Times
 
In a perfect world it shouldn't matter, but it matters way too much.

Shawn Morrison 11-17-2012 09:30 AM

Re: Analyze This: Greatest of All Times
 
it doesn't matter. How much someone draws depends on the booking and the creative, it has little to do with the Superstars themselves.

Elipses Corter 11-17-2012 04:39 PM

Re: Analyze This: Greatest of All Times
 
I say no.

People have this weird notion that drawing is the only thing that matters. I don't include that at all, when speaking on the GOAT. For me, this about wrestling. I don't factually know how much money somebody made, other than from what they want you to know. The criteria for GOAT should solely be based on what you know and that is what happens in the ring. As a fan, that is all that should matter. It kills me when fans today call a particular guy a draw because of the money he's making but completely ignore a guy from 20, 30 even 40 years ago because the business wasn't as big. It's all a reflection of the economy but don't ignore the guy who did a lot in elevating the business simply because he wasn't setting attendance records or making millions.

Anything involving GOAT wrestler should solely be based on what happens in that ring, not at the ticket booth.

The Gorgeous One 11-17-2012 04:58 PM

Re: Analyze This: Greatest of All Times
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by El Chapo (Post 12275804)
I say no.

People have this weird notion that drawing is the only thing that matters. I don't include that at all, when speaking on the GOAT. For me, this about wrestling. I don't factually know how much money somebody made, other than from what they want you to know. The criteria for GOAT should solely be based on what you know and that is what happens in the ring. As a fan, that is all that should matter. It kills me when fans today call a particular guy a draw because of the money he's making but completely ignore a guy from 20, 30 even 40 years ago because the business wasn't as big. It's all a reflection of the economy but don't ignore the guy who did a lot in elevating the business simply because he wasn't setting attendance records or making millions.

Anything involving GOAT wrestler should solely be based on what happens in that ring, not at the ticket booth.

But how does in-ring wrestling matter? Wrestlers and promoters really don't care that much about in-ring style, so I don't know where this incessant need of internet "smarks" came from. If you are basing it solely on what happens in the ring then I guess you consider Dynamite Kid and Tiger Mask as two of the greatest of all time?

Of course you need good in-ring performance as well, because wrestling is a variety show, you need something for everyone. But in pro-wrestling being great in the ring doesn't make you a great pro wrestler, drawing money is a lot to do with the wrestler themselves, look at the territory days. Even before Hogan went to WWF he was a huge draw in AWA with his own gimmick. Even wrestlers like Pat Patterson say that it was both Hogan and McMahon that made WWF and not just the promoter. If it was just down to the promoter, why did Lex Luger not work? Why is Randy Orton still not a massive draw considering he has been rammed down fans throats since he started?

Drawing isn't the only thing that matters but without guys who draw money you wouldn't have any wrestling at all.

Elipses Corter 11-17-2012 05:11 PM

Re: Analyze This: Greatest of All Times
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by The Gorgeous One (Post 12275834)
But how does in-ring wrestling matter? Wrestlers and promoters really don't care that much about in-ring style, so I don't know where this incessant need of internet "smarks" came from. If you are basing it solely on what happens in the ring then I guess you consider Dynamite Kid and Tiger Mask as two of the greatest of all time?

Of course you need good in-ring performance as well, because wrestling is a variety show, you need something for everyone. But in pro-wrestling being great in the ring doesn't make you a great pro wrestler, drawing money is a lot to do with the wrestler themselves, look at the territory days. Even before Hogan went to WWF he was a huge draw in AWA with his own gimmick. Even wrestlers like Pat Patterson say that it was both Hogan and McMahon that made WWF and not just the promoter. If it was just down to the promoter, why did Lex Luger not work? Why is Randy Orton still not a massive draw considering he has been rammed down fans throats since he started?

Drawing isn't the only thing that matters but without guys who draw money you wouldn't have any wrestling at all.

Booking is provides the draw. And at the same time, that has a bigger effect on the company, not me as a fan. I don't see the need from a fans perspective of limiting GOAT talk to only those who draw big money.

You know what, it's just me. I refuse to call someone GOAT because of the gate, as a fan, it should be all about what happens in that ring and everything associated with performance. You can push a guy to the moon but if he can't perform at that level, he won't be a draw. But if he is a draw and makes money, it could be due to various factors that is a reflection of character, booking or popularity. I can't give someone that advantage because they made good money or a great wrestler who could work and tell a story in the ring.

The Gorgeous One 11-17-2012 05:20 PM

Re: Analyze This: Greatest of All Times
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by El Chapo (Post 12275857)
Booking is provides the draw. And at the same time, that has a bigger effect on the company, not me as a fan. I don't see the need from a fans perspective of limiting GOAT talk to only those who draw big money.

You know what, it's just me. I refuse to call someone GOAT because of the gate, as a fan, it should be all about what happens in that ring and everything associated with performance. You can push a guy to the moon but if he can't perform at that level, he won't be a draw. But if he is a draw and makes money, it could be due to various factors that is a reflection of character, booking or popularity. I can't give someone that advantage because they made good money or a great wrestler who could work and tell a story in the ring.

But then that just turns it into favourites of all time. I personally as a fan don't rate in-ring performance (in the sense of what most smarks do), and then again what makes a great in-ring performer? Hogan had some great matches, Hogan vs Andre, Hogan vs Warrior, Hogan vs Savage, Hogan vs Rock. I would say at least 2 of those would be 10 greatest wrestlemania matches of all time. Or do you base it off technicality and Japanese or Mexican style wrestling. This just turns it into subjectively who are your favourites. Drawing is something that is essential to the business and with impact I believe those are the two most important factors when trying to decide objectively who is the greatest of all time. Warrior wasn't great in the ring, but he got over and therefore made a lot of money for Vince, surely if the view of fans was that technical wrestling is the be all and end all of what makes someone great then he would never of gotten over and guys like HBK would have been over massively, yet in reality HBK is one of the reasons that WCW was beating them in the ratings, because he wasn't that big of a draw.

Elipses Corter 11-17-2012 05:29 PM

Re: Analyze This: Greatest of All Times
 
And that is the thing. GOAT is subjective, based on what fans prefer. There is no consensus that GOAT should only be based on certain things. Just so happens, I feel like the OP and GOAT should be based on the things he mentioned, not how much money a certain wrestler made.

Drawing is simply a reflection of booking. The right booking can make anybody a draw but the right booking can't make you appear superior in all other aspects, only in the box office.


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