Analyze This: Greatest of All Times - Page 7 - Wrestling Forum : WWE, TNA, Debate League, Wrestling Videos, Women of Wrestling Forums

View Poll Results: Should Business factors and Drawing ability be a criteria for Greatness?

Yes 25 59.52%
No 15 35.71%
Others (Please elaborate) 2 4.76%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 42. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 11-19-2012, 06:02 PM   #61 (permalink)
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Default Re: Analyze This: Greatest of All Times

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShowHBKStopper View Post
Imo HBK is the easily the greatest overall performer however WWE sole and only objective is to generate revenue. By this principle the best are those who draw the most which leaves it up to Hogan/Austin/Rock. The reason why drawing is also more important is bc other than those 3 and a MAYBE a handful others really drew big money. Compare that to how many great in ring workers there are.....theres like a billion.
Quit flip flopping. In the official GOAT thread, you just said HBK was GOAT.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Catalanotto View Post
I don't want to cause a lot of shit here bringing up names but in ring ability doesn't always matter (assuming this is what you mean by 'what happens in the ring'). Hulk Hogan is one of the best wrestlers of all time...and not because of his in ring ability, because he pretty much had none. It was everything else about him that grabbed people's attention. I am not saying he is one of the worst wrestlers to ever live, just saying he was not that great in the ring, but was still a huge star.

I am with a lot of people with the opinion that it is a bunch of things that make someone one of the best but in ring ability doesn't always make as big of an impact with some guys. Piper wasn't the best in the ring, either, nor was he the worst, but he is one of the best talkers in the business.
I don't necessarily mean ring ability when I said that, I meant it in the sense of the show and not the business side. Basically, all about the presentation.

The thing is, a lot of guys in the 80s could develop a connection with the fans and often were cutting their teeth in the territories before making it big. But since then, you have WWE pushing guys simply off their name or reputation. The last true great stars WWE created that can be considered GOAT was Austin & Rock. But when I view them as GOAT, I don't look into the drawing aspect as much. It's all about what they do in the ring with me, in regards to the all around performance they put on. Ring ability is a part of that but I feel if you're at least above average, you should be considered.

The thing with drawing power is so many other factors can come into play and affect whether someone is a draw or not. So, it's a disadvantage for guys before 1984 and guys between 1993 and 1997 because the business wasn't in good shape.
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Old 11-19-2012, 07:46 PM   #62 (permalink)
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Default Re: Analyze This: Greatest of All Times

Okay, I wasn't exactly sure what you meant by that.


Wrestling today is obviously way different than it was. One of the biggest things I miss are characters. Most of them are generic fuckers. There is nothing much that really has someone stand out from the next guy (I mean as a character specifically, not so much other things, like charisma). It's just a bunch of guys in tights....
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Old 11-20-2012, 02:08 PM   #63 (permalink)
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Default Re: Analyze This: Greatest of All Times

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Chapo View Post
Quit flip flopping. In the official GOAT thread, you just said HBK was GOAT.

I don't necessarily mean ring ability when I said that, I meant it in the sense of the show and not the business side. Basically, all about the presentation.

The thing is, a lot of guys in the 80s could develop a connection with the fans and often were cutting their teeth in the territories before making it big. But since then, you have WWE pushing guys simply off their name or reputation. The last true great stars WWE created that can be considered GOAT was Austin & Rock. But when I view them as GOAT, I don't look into the drawing aspect as much. It's all about what they do in the ring with me, in regards to the all around performance they put on. Ring ability is a part of that but I feel if you're at least above average, you should be considered.

The thing with drawing power is so many other factors can come into play and affect whether someone is a draw or not. So, it's a disadvantage for guys before 1984 and guys between 1993 and 1997 because the business wasn't in good shape.


HBK is the greatest performer but im not stupid nor a mark. AE did just fine w/o him so how great/valuble is he really? Overall its always between Hogan/Austin/Rock
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Old 11-20-2012, 02:15 PM   #64 (permalink)
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Default Re: Analyze This: Greatest of All Times

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Chapo View Post
Quit flip flopping. In the official GOAT thread, you just said HBK was GOAT.



I don't necessarily mean ring ability when I said that, I meant it in the sense of the show and not the business side. Basically, all about the presentation.

The thing is, a lot of guys in the 80s could develop a connection with the fans and often were cutting their teeth in the territories before making it big. But since then, you have WWE pushing guys simply off their name or reputation. The last true great stars WWE created that can be considered GOAT was Austin & Rock. But when I view them as GOAT, I don't look into the drawing aspect as much. It's all about what they do in the ring with me, in regards to the all around performance they put on. Ring ability is a part of that but I feel if you're at least above average, you should be considered.

The thing with drawing power is so many other factors can come into play and affect whether someone is a draw or not. So, it's a disadvantage for guys before 1984 and guys between 1993 and 1997 because the business wasn't in good shape.

HBK is the greatest performer but im not stupid nor a mark. AE did just fine w/o him so how great/valuble is he really? Overall its always between Hogan/Austin/Rock
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Old 11-20-2012, 11:23 PM   #65 (permalink)
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Default Re: Analyze This: Greatest of All Times

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShowHBKStopper View Post
HBK is the greatest performer but im not stupid nor a mark. AE did just fine w/o him so how great/valuble is he really? Overall its always between Hogan/Austin/Rock
I think alot of guys on this thread have made some great points. El Chapo, Walk In, and Stranger have all made some really compelling arguments. In the end the above post (no offense to you showstopper) is proof that the real answer here is what guys like Mike Z and Chapo and I have said. The main determining factor is based upon the individual's exposure, and their specific era. I mean how many posts have we seen over the last few months of guys arguing GOAT without mentioning anyone who wrestled in the storied history of wrestling before 1980? That is not their fault that they comment on what they have seen and subsequently believe. But even an old fart like myself really cannot make an educated "factual" statement. I believe Flair is the greatest based on my years, but what about the guys before him? How can I understand the impact a guy had in the 50's? We talk about how the Rock, Stone Cold, and Hogan took the sport to a "new level" and crossed over, filled arenas etc...but my research also tells me guys like Rocca, early Verne Gagne, and the Riot Squad also took the sport to new levels, they had national commercials, and they filled arens.

In the end it is a fun arguement and everyone is entitled to their opinion. It is not a worthless endeavor becuase after all the board is her for entertainment, and GOAT threads are entertaining. I like telling the younger guys about Thesz, Santo, and Flair, and they like arguing Rock vs Austin. But I do think we should all keep in mind that the real basis for judging is based on our body of knowledge.

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Old 11-20-2012, 11:29 PM   #66 (permalink)
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Default Re: Analyze This: Greatest of All Times

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Originally Posted by Catalanotto View Post
That is really quite subjective, though...and comparing it to football teams of certain years is a bit silly....anyone who looks at the team stats from those times and disagrees that those teams were anything but amazing are just idiots. The proof is right in front of their faces.

Saying a certain guy is 'the man' is just an opinion, though a lot of people share the same opinion of Flair, but that still does not make it 'truth'. It is still just an opinion. The stats of those teams are not an opinion, they are true stats.

IMO, though Piper is my favorite wrestler of all time, one of my top 3 favorites is Gorgeous George, and I would put him above almost everyone just for his take on wrestling and how he made it a show....which Flair can thank him since Flair partially took things from him and used it for his own character.
Apparently I did not communicate my post very well because we basically are in 100% agreement. I was saying that "I know Flair is the man", and that is my opinion, based on my years. But based on someone else's they would not agree. I brought up those teams trying to make that point.
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Old 11-20-2012, 11:38 PM   #67 (permalink)
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Default Re: Analyze This: Greatest of All Times

Exactly. Unless we are wrestling historians and share the same amount of respect for each era, our answers are going to be biased based on what era we grew up in.

So IMO, there is no correct or incorrect answer. For example, if you were to say Lou Thesz or Bruno, I couldn't disagree because it was before my time and with the business taking off even more since, it makes their accomplishments and drawing power look inferior, eventhough they had some part in making wrestling popular long before guys like Hogan or Rock were around.

For example, I looked up drawing power and from what I've seen, Bruno was a HUGE draw consistently. But in years since, we tend to think that only recent guys are true draws simply because this is the era some of us favor and we choose not to look back at the true history of professional wrestling and how guys took it from a carnival act to a globally respected & profitable business. Hell, I've even read a report of matches between Frank Gotch and George Hackenschmidt in the early 20th century making front page news around the world on par with the World Cup or Super Bowl today. Gotch has since been referred to as "the Hulk Hogan of his day" and lifted the sport to new heights, back when it was a legitimate sport. But fans today won't really buy into that due to the culture, age difference or just plain disdain for wrestling pre-1984.
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Old 11-21-2012, 06:02 AM   #68 (permalink)
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Default Re: Analyze This: Greatest of All Times

Great post by GreenLawler as usual though I believe Hogan was the greatest wrestler that I have witnessed.

To El Chapo-You are right about the performers before 1950.My great-grandfather was a small time wrestling promoter in 1920's and 1930's,though he didn't make it big.My dad used to tell me stories what his grandfather said to him.He said how people used to come in huge numbers to see Ed Lewis perform.I am not sure whether people have even heard of his name.
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Old 11-21-2012, 06:29 AM   #69 (permalink)
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Default Re: Analyze This: Greatest of All Times

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenlawler View Post
I think alot of guys on this thread have made some great points. El Chapo, Walk In, and Stranger have all made some really compelling arguments. In the end the above post (no offense to you showstopper) is proof that the real answer here is what guys like Mike Z and Chapo and I have said. The main determining factor is based upon the individual's exposure, and their specific era. I mean how many posts have we seen over the last few months of guys arguing GOAT without mentioning anyone who wrestled in the storied history of wrestling before 1980? That is not their fault that they comment on what they have seen and subsequently believe. But even an old fart like myself really cannot make an educated "factual" statement. I believe Flair is the greatest based on my years, but what about the guys before him? How can I understand the impact a guy had in the 50's? We talk about how the Rock, Stone Cold, and Hogan took the sport to a "new level" and crossed over, filled arenas etc...but my research also tells me guys like Rocca, early Verne Gagne, and the Riot Squad also took the sport to new levels, they had national commercials, and they filled arens.

In the end it is a fun arguement and everyone is entitled to their opinion. It is not a worthless endeavor becuase after all the board is her for entertainment, and GOAT threads are entertaining. I like telling the younger guys about Thesz, Santo, and Flair, and they like arguing Rock vs Austin. But I do think we should all keep in mind that the real basis for judging is based on our body of knowledge.

Rocca was practically the first north american cross over star and featured with Superman on the cover throwing out superman which is something which says how over he was at that time. I also came across that he made MSG big bringing in the crowd for a period of 7 years.

That is the point I would like to highlight here now. Inspite of being that big, Rocca or Gagne or Sammartino are not as revered as Lou Thesz and the reason Lou Thesz is revered is more because of his abilities than him being a draw. While we forgot Hogan, Flair or Lawler, you guys forgot Rocca, Gagne while the next set will forget Rock and Austin and would call Cena and Ryback the greatest of all times. Drawing is more important for the promoters for running the day to day business while the fans will move on to the then draw, the wrestlers with talent will remain etched forever, remembered as one of the greatest long after they are gone; all in my humble opinion.
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Old 11-21-2012, 06:47 AM   #70 (permalink)
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Default Re: Analyze This: Greatest of All Times

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Ask any wrestling of any age as to who was the greatest wrestler or when was pro-wrestling in it's peak and you will most likely get a uniform answer that the era they started watching and grew up with was the greatest period and the stars from that era being the greatest wrestler of all times.
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