Analyze This: Greatest of All Times - Page 6 - Wrestling Forum : WWE, TNA, ROH, Wrestling Videos, Women of Wrestling Forums

View Poll Results: Should Business factors and Drawing ability be a criteria for Greatness?

Yes 25 59.52%
No 15 35.71%
Others (Please elaborate) 2 4.76%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 42. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 11-18-2012, 09:33 PM   #51 (permalink)
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Default Re: Analyze This: Greatest of All Times

Quote:
Originally Posted by theidealstranger View Post
Well, when we say drawing power as a criteria, as you have put for in-ring ability, there is no measure even though there is a number. Any territory guy who was a huge massive draw in his territory would be left out of G.O.A.T discussion just because national promotion was not such a in thing in 60's in the scale of WWE/F and with a wider coverage, the current wrestler who drew in a national scale would always look bigger than the classic guy who was GOD in his territory when it comes to drawing. There are other factors as well like inflation when we talk money which by the way is becoming a factor when they talk highest grossing films and the times, fashion and culture.

Post the Wrestling boom, it got coverage like never before and the same goes for Attitude Era and guys from those times would obviously be bigger draws than those Gods of territorial wrestling.

While I acknowledge the same can be said about in ring ability or ring psychology but it is in a much smaller scale compared to drawing ability because it does not involve as much external factors as others for drawing power includes economic situation as well. A depression era great would not draw as much in money as a guy today for no fault of his. But he would be able to put in as much ring psychology or storytelling as a guy today.

Ultimately, it is purely subjective for someone to take anything as a criteria. Even the height and build be a criteria for that matter. If, for me, a guy more than 6'2'' does not work simply because he has this being bigger advantage, then it is also perfectly fine. Can you please list your criteria while we are at it.

To add to this, say tomorrow WWE manages to rope in a A-list action star for a couple of years run in the programming, he would be a big draw for surely people would come to see him in person and his impact also would be great which was evident from various boxing cameos with good storylines that helped sell PPVs, do you think he would have in him what it takes to stake a claim in being the greatest wrestler of all times?
Excellent post Stranger.

1. Charisma
2. Legacy
3. Storytelling
4. Main Event Presence
5. In Ring Ability
6. MIC Skills (certainly needed)
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Old 11-18-2012, 10:29 PM   #52 (permalink)
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Default Re: Analyze This: Greatest of All Times

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Originally Posted by El Chapo View Post
I say no.

People have this weird notion that drawing is the only thing that matters. I don't include that at all, when speaking on the GOAT. For me, this about wrestling. I don't factually know how much money somebody made, other than from what they want you to know. The criteria for GOAT should solely be based on what you know and that is what happens in the ring. As a fan, that is all that should matter. It kills me when fans today call a particular guy a draw because of the money he's making but completely ignore a guy from 20, 30 even 40 years ago because the business wasn't as big. It's all a reflection of the economy but don't ignore the guy who did a lot in elevating the business simply because he wasn't setting attendance records or making millions.

Anything involving GOAT wrestler should solely be based on what happens in that ring, not at the ticket booth.

I don't want to cause a lot of shit here bringing up names but in ring ability doesn't always matter (assuming this is what you mean by 'what happens in the ring'). Hulk Hogan is one of the best wrestlers of all time...and not because of his in ring ability, because he pretty much had none. It was everything else about him that grabbed people's attention. I am not saying he is one of the worst wrestlers to ever live, just saying he was not that great in the ring, but was still a huge star.

I am with a lot of people with the opinion that it is a bunch of things that make someone one of the best but in ring ability doesn't always make as big of an impact with some guys. Piper wasn't the best in the ring, either, nor was he the worst, but he is one of the best talkers in the business.
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Old 11-18-2012, 10:50 PM   #53 (permalink)
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Default Re: Analyze This: Greatest of All Times

I would imagine that alot of this comes down to a generational thing.

Really the territorial era was more about the intensity of the fued, the wreslters charisma, and the ability to tell a story.

So in that reagard, as a child of the 70's I consider the great ones the guys who built a legacy based on those things. Heck we thought dropkicks were showstoppers. Most guys back then punched, kicked and clotheslined. It was a different time, and we did not care that no one did moonsaults. It was about the fued, and it made sense that when two guys hated each other they punched and kicked.

Today's internet fan is far more concerned about in ring ability, however I will say I don't think the average fan who is not a smart mark is concerend with that as much as the IWC fans are, but the fueds are not as intense. The era of Kayfabe is over. They do love the high spots.

But it boils down to this, we are all fans of the guys we grew up with. The guys from my era will never accept any argument that Flair and Thesz are not the greatest, but children of the 80's will prop up Hogan just as children of the 90's will cry Rock and Austin. In ten years their will be a huge rising of fans who actually will declare Cena as the greatest ever. I think that is crazy but they will not, and they will dismiss me as an old timer.

This website is living proof. While I know in my 40 years of wrestling fandom that Flair is the man (no offense to Thesz), bar none (even though I am not a fan of his), he will be ignored just as he is in the GOAT thread on this site in spite of all of the things we list as qualities of the GOAT.

So it is really about how old you are and less about what criteria you use for many fans. Try telling a kid from the 60's that the Packers are not the greatest team ever, or a child of the 70's that it's not the Steelers or 72 Phins.

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Old 11-18-2012, 11:38 PM   #54 (permalink)
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Default Re: Analyze This: Greatest of All Times

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Originally Posted by Greenlawler View Post
While I know in my 40 years of wrestling fandom that Flair is the man
That is really quite subjective, though...and comparing it to football teams of certain years is a bit silly....anyone who looks at the team stats from those times and disagrees that those teams were anything but amazing are just idiots. The proof is right in front of their faces.

Saying a certain guy is 'the man' is just an opinion, though a lot of people share the same opinion of Flair, but that still does not make it 'truth'. It is still just an opinion. The stats of those teams are not an opinion, they are true stats.

IMO, though Piper is my favorite wrestler of all time, one of my top 3 favorites is Gorgeous George, and I would put him above almost everyone just for his take on wrestling and how he made it a show....which Flair can thank him since Flair partially took things from him and used it for his own character.
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Old 11-19-2012, 12:03 AM   #55 (permalink)
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Default Re: Analyze This: Greatest of All Times

I'm a wrestling fan, not a shareholder, or a promoter so I don't give a damn about who draws. There's no way of telling anyway. Its not like people only go see one match at a time, people want to see entertaining cards, there more entertaining the card the more money you can make off it.

Besides over time, like now and maybe during the 90s, people are gravitating towards a specific BRAND of entertainment more than any one specific person.
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Old 11-19-2012, 12:13 AM   #56 (permalink)
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Default Re: Analyze This: Greatest of All Times

Business factors and Drawing are for Vince to worry over. I judge my GOATS purely on who entertained me the most and for the longest.
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Old 11-19-2012, 07:46 AM   #57 (permalink)
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Default Re: Analyze This: Greatest of All Times

Impact is the single biggest thing when I consider greatest in pro-wrestling
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Old 11-19-2012, 07:56 AM   #58 (permalink)
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Default Re: Analyze This: Greatest of All Times

I think when it comes to judging the overall G.O.A.T., impact should be taken into account, not necessarily drawing specifically (although that's certainly a facet of impact). Things like that do need to be included though. imo, when it comes to sheer talent, Eddie Guerrero had the most of it, but I can't really call him the G.O.A.T. since others have made a much bigger mark on the business. I don't think it's neessarrily a requirement for 2 - 5, but I think that number 1 spot needs it.
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ďKevin Nash is right. Smaller guys donít draw. I mean who would pay any money to watch itty bitty guys like Mayweather or Paquiao?"
Talent/charisma draws. Not size.
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Old 11-19-2012, 02:40 PM   #59 (permalink)
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Default Re: Analyze This: Greatest of All Times

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Chapo View Post
I say no.

People have this weird notion that drawing is the only thing that matters. I don't include that at all, when speaking on the GOAT. For me, this about wrestling. I don't factually know how much money somebody made, other than from what they want you to know. The criteria for GOAT should solely be based on what you know and that is what happens in the ring. As a fan, that is all that should matter. It kills me when fans today call a particular guy a draw because of the money he's making but completely ignore a guy from 20, 30 even 40 years ago because the business wasn't as big. It's all a reflection of the economy but don't ignore the guy who did a lot in elevating the business simply because he wasn't setting attendance records or making millions.

Anything involving GOAT wrestler should solely be based on what happens in that ring, not at the ticket booth.



Imo HBK is the easily the greatest overall performer however WWE sole and only objective is to generate revenue. By this principle the best are those who draw the most which leaves it up to Hogan/Austin/Rock. The reason why drawing is also more important is bc other than those 3 and a MAYBE a handful others really drew big money. Compare that to how many great in ring workers there are.....theres like a billion.
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Old 11-19-2012, 02:46 PM   #60 (permalink)
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Default Re: Analyze This: Greatest of All Times

Boiling this all down to its logical baseline means that trying to name a greatest wrestler ever is like trying to name a greatest actor ever. You'll never have a consensus. It takes a Gretsky or Jordan in sports before you can even get a consensus on a non-scripted activity. Greatest Ever categories in scripted environments are always going to come down to matters of opinion, and cherry picked criteria.
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