Analyze This: Greatest of All Times - Page 2 - Wrestling Forum : WWE, TNA, Debate League, Wrestling Videos, Women of Wrestling Forums

View Poll Results: Should Business factors and Drawing ability be a criteria for Greatness?

Yes 25 59.52%
No 15 35.71%
Others (Please elaborate) 2 4.76%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 42. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 11-17-2012, 05:31 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Default Re: Analyze This: Greatest of All Times

I actually do think it is subjective. All of it, sans definite numbers. Like, if promo ability for you is a factor, how does that weigh-in for non-English speaking workers?

Jeff Hardy is a bigger draw than Stan Hansen. Am I going to say that Jeff Hardy is better than Stan Hansen? Fuck no.

So it's all subjective, to a degree. There's not some weighted scale in place where you judge the criteria based upon percentages of what matters more between work/promo/drawing power, etc.

Hulk Hogan, Steve Austin & The Rock are three of the biggest stars and draws ever and none of the three are even in my top ten. So there ya go.

Last edited by Coffey : 11-17-2012 at 05:35 PM.
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Old 11-17-2012, 05:43 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Default Re: Analyze This: Greatest of All Times

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Chapo View Post
And that is the thing. GOAT is subjective, based on what fans prefer. There is no consensus that GOAT should only be based on certain things. Just so happens, I feel like the OP and GOAT should be based on the things he mentioned, not how much money a certain wrestler made.

Drawing is simply a reflection of booking. The right booking can make anybody a draw but the right booking can't make you appear superior in all other aspects, only in the box office.
How is there a debate if it is subjective then? It is just a difference in opinion. I could say Hornswoggle is the greatest of all time, and that would be contended as a legitimate answer if it's subjective.

Drawing isn't a reflection of booking. Maybe to a certain point, but like I said why wasn't Lex Luger as big of a draw as Hogan or why wasn't Goldberg? Why isn't Jeff Jarrett the biggest draw of the 2000's? Since he constantly booked himself amazingly.

Taking on Walk-In's point, I think the most difficult thing about addressing greatness is comparing between generations. For example it is very difficult to compare someone like Frank Gotch to a modern day wrestler considering how much wrestling and society has changed. If it is subjective, what is the point? There isn't an argument if it is just different opinions. Obviously there has to be objectiveness to it, otherwise you could say that well gays shouldn't have equal rights to everyone else since it is just two contrasting opinions, when in reality you have to look at it objectively. (This is probably a terrible example, but it was the most relevant one in today's society I could think of)
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Old 11-17-2012, 05:57 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Default Re: Analyze This: Greatest of All Times

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Originally Posted by The Gorgeous One View Post
How is there a debate if it is subjective then? It is just a difference in opinion. I could say Hornswoggle is the greatest of all time, and that would be contended as a legitimate answer if it's subjective.

Drawing isn't a reflection of booking. Maybe to a certain point, but like I said why wasn't Lex Luger as big of a draw as Hogan or why wasn't Goldberg? Why isn't Jeff Jarrett the biggest draw of the 2000's? Since he constantly booked himself amazingly.
Maybe I used the wrong word but the fact remains that there is no right or wrong answer because there is no definite criteria that everyone should adhere to when talking about GOAT. It's all about people's personal likes. The thing that bothers me is, for example, someone would say Hogan is GOAT and it's cool. But, if someone else would Inoki is GOAT, it angers the other person who falls back on the drawing argument and likely know nothing of Inoki's career, since he wasn't a big attraction in the states.

As for the second part of your statement, I can't say factually why Luger & Jarrett weren't big draws. I can only assume that it falls back on the booking. Luger was pushed too soon and Jarrett had to form his own company to be the main focus. But if someone was to say either man is GOAT, they aren't necessarily wrong, as the whole thing is opinion based and is a reflection of people's tastes.
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Old 11-17-2012, 06:09 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Default Re: Analyze This: Greatest of All Times

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Originally Posted by El Chapo View Post
Maybe I used the wrong word but the fact remains that there is no right or wrong answer because there is no definite criteria that everyone should adhere to when talking about GOAT. It's all about people's personal likes. The thing that bothers me is, for example, someone would say Hogan is GOAT and it's cool. But, if someone else would Inoki is GOAT, it angers the other person who falls back on the drawing argument and likely know nothing of Inoki's career, since he wasn't a big attraction in the states.

As for the second part of your statement, I can't say factually why Luger & Jarrett weren't big draws. I can only assume that it falls back on the booking. Luger was pushed too soon and Jarrett had to form his own company to be the main focus. But if someone was to say either man is GOAT, they aren't necessarily wrong, as the whole thing is opinion based and is a reflection of people's tastes.
So it is just who are your personal favourites of all time. There is no such thing as GOAT in your theory (which I do partly agree with). As for your example of Hogan and Inoki, why does it bother you if it is just difference in opinion? I think there are echelons of a certain group of wrestlers. For example guys like Hogan, Flair, Santo, Inoki could all be in the top division and then you could debate for any of those guys and probably provide a decent argument, whereas in a lower division if you had Jarrett, Gillberg etc. you couldn't provide a worthy argument to say Jarrett is greater than Hogan.
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Old 11-17-2012, 06:11 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Default Re: Analyze This: Greatest of All Times

Another thing to consider is that someone is only as good as the stuff of theirs that you have seen. It sort of ties-in with the generation point that was brought up. At the same time though, if all of the Kawada stuff you have seen is incredible (let's say because you bought compilation tapes/DVDs which obviously won't include the bad stuff) from a pure sampling size, he is going to appear a lot greater than say someone like Shawn Michaels (just as an example as Kawada is better) whom you might have seen the entire WWF career of, all the good and bad.
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Old 11-17-2012, 06:14 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Default Re: Analyze This: Greatest of All Times

Being a draw makes you important but I don't contribute that importance to my own idea of what makes someone great. Putting Hogan above Shawn Michaels would be like placing James Cameron ahead of Martin Scorsese. One's an entertainer, the other's an artist.

Then you get a guy like Austin who would be high on both lists. Important to the industry and an amazing performer to boot.
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Old 11-17-2012, 06:19 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Default Re: Analyze This: Greatest of All Times

You missed out the two most important criteria for me. Memorable matches and General impact on this business. To Answer the question, yes of course it matters.
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Old 11-17-2012, 06:20 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Default Re: Analyze This: Greatest of All Times

Quote:
Originally Posted by Walk-In View Post
Another thing to consider is that someone is only as good as the stuff of theirs that you have seen. It sort of ties-in with the generation point that was brought up. At the same time though, if all of the Kawada stuff you have seen is incredible (let's say because you bought compilation tapes/DVDs which obviously won't include the bad stuff) from a pure sampling size, he is going to appear a lot greater than say someone like Shawn Michaels (just as an example as Kawada is better) whom you might have seen the entire WWF career of, all the good and bad.
Doesn't that make drawing power in the argument more meaningful? Just by watching old Japanese wrestling or watching a dvd of someone's greatest matches and then saying this guy is the greatest makes it less useful to use in-ring performance. Drawing is a more accurate criteria since it shows who people at the time would pay to see. Obviously Meltzer's ratings probably aren't 100% accurate but they are a hell of a lot more accurate than using memory of wrestlers matches, since instinctively you are going to remember the better ones if you personally like someone, and the bad matches if you dislike them. At least drawing gives a realistic look at what fans would pay to see and who they would pay to go see.
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Old 11-17-2012, 06:24 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Default Re: Analyze This: Greatest of All Times

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Originally Posted by The Gorgeous One View Post
So it is just who are your personal favourites of all time. There is no such thing as GOAT in your theory (which I do partly agree with). As for your example of Hogan and Inoki, why does it bother you if it is just difference in opinion? I think there are echelons of a certain group of wrestlers. For example guys like Hogan, Flair, Santo, Inoki could all be in the top division and then you could debate for any of those guys and probably provide a decent argument, whereas in a lower division if you had Jarrett, Gillberg etc. you couldn't provide a worthy argument to say Jarrett is greater than Hogan.
You're missing the whole point. There is no basis for what GOAT should be based on. It's all a matter of opinion. Sure if someone says Jarrett is greater than Hogan, I would disagree. But, I don't expect to change their opinion.

That is what GOAT is, nothing more than a personal favorite. Reason I say that is because people seem to limit it to American wrestling from 1984 and today. Whereas, a guy who watched in the 70s might have a different answer or a guy who is a big fan of Japanese wrestling. It's nothing more than opinions, based on what people prefer. And I don't want to derail the thread from it's original purpose but if I was to list who I feel is GOAT, dozens of people will step in and completely debate everything I said based solely on drawing. No winner or loser, just strong opinions.

And no, there is no such thing as GOAT, unless you've watched all aspects of wrestling. That's why I find it weird when people make these GOAT lists and leave out plenty of old school and international talents. And based on that, everybody, in some way, shape or form, are going to be biased in favor of what they are familiar with.
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Old 11-17-2012, 06:26 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Default Re: Analyze This: Greatest of All Times

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Originally Posted by The Gorgeous One View Post
Doesn't that make drawing power in the argument more meaningful? Just by watching old Japanese wrestling or watching a dvd of someone's greatest matches and then saying this guy is the greatest makes it less useful to use in-ring performance. Drawing is a more accurate criteria since it shows who people at the time would pay to see.
No, because you can't see what is not available & you're not going to use the opinions of others to form your own opinion. I mean, is there a hidden surplus of Jerry Lawler in Memphis I don't know about? Because I was born after that era & it predated the internet age. You know what I mean? And if you grew up in the States, you're obviously going to have less access to Puroresu, Lucha Libre or even English/British wrestling.

If anything, that makes it so in-ring is ALL that matters, especially when rating Puroresu where there's a disconnect of both culture & language. If Jumbo isn't a draw, that doesn't make his matches worse.

Maybe I'm not understanding what you're saying though because I feel sort of confused.
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