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RyanPelley 11-15-2012 12:24 AM

Shawn Michaels and Diesel
 
As my fellow HBK fans are already aware of, the story between Shawn Michaels and Diesel starts with Shawn watching WCW, seeing the terrible acting of Kevin Nash portraying the "Vinnie Vegas" character. Shawn gives Vince a call, Nash gets his release from WCW, shows up in the WWF, and the rest is history.

Their chemistry was natural, and the body guard angle (when it wasn't overdone and poorly executed) helped establish Shawn Michaels as a top heel ready to break into the main event scene. However, we all know that it was actually Diesel who ended up winning the WWF Championship first, and holding it for a year. I'll admit, seeing Shawn fuck up one too many times and finally seeing Diesel snap and go after him was awesome at the time, and it still is watching now.

Really though, looking back, does it seem kind of weird to anyone that Nash was the first of the two to hold the WWF Championship? Shawn gets him a job, and less than two years later, he's holding the strap for an extended period. And I'm honestly surprised, knowing Shawn's ego, that someone has come public about Shawn throwing a bitch fit about the guy he got a job getting the Title first.

Who knows, maybe a heel Diesel winning the Title FOR Shawn, like an Andre - DiBiase type way would have been cool. Diesel continues doing the dirty work for Shawn, until he eventually gets fed up, turns face, and takes the Title from him at Wrestlemania XI? Or maybe I'm just getting ahead of myself. Thoughts on the situation and their partnership?

ShowStopper 11-15-2012 12:37 AM

Re: Shawn Michaels and Diesel
 
Knowing Vince's hard-on for big guys back then, it probably wasn't as shocking to the boys in the back. Not to mention, as charismatic as Nash was back then, he clearly was not ready to be "the man." He wasn't drawing as much as Vince hoped, and wasn't having the quality of matches that are expected from the champion night in and night out. He gave it his best, so that should be pointed out. I do believe he was trying his best, but he just wasn't good enough to have good to great matches with all different sorts of workers. He was carried for the most part to good matches by HBK, Bret, Razor, etc. If you are drawing, you can get away with being carried. But if you're not drawing and not a good worker, you're most likely screwed.

As for Shawn, he made Kevin Nash a millionaire. If Shawn doesn't see Nash on WCW Saturday Night that night and never lets Vince know about him, there is a good chance that Nash never goes to the WWF and never becomes a star. While it may have sucked to see someone less talented than him become champion first, I'm sure the fact that he made a friend for life and played a pivotal role in helping that friend become successful and provide for his family made him feel alright about it. That, and it worked out pretty well for Shawn in the end. He stayed in WWE for his entire career and is heralded by Vince and that entire company, while things didn't work out quite as well for Nash, though he was successful.

RyanPelley 11-15-2012 12:40 AM

Re: Shawn Michaels and Diesel
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ShowStopper '97 (Post 12267563)
Knowing Vince's hard-on for big guys back then, it probably wasn't as shocking to the boys in the back. Not to mention, as charismatic as Nash was back then, he clearly was not ready to be "the man." He wasn't drawing as much as Vince hoped, and wasn't having the quality of matches that are expected from the champion night in and night out. He gave it his best, so that should be pointed out. I do believe he was trying his best, but he just wasn't good enough to have good to great matches with all different sorts of workers. He was carried for the most part to good matches by HBK, Bret, Razor, etc. If you are drawing, you can get away with being carried. But if you're not drawing and not a good worker, you're most likely screwed.

As for Shawn, he made Kevin Nash a millionaire. If Shawn doesn't see Nash on WCW Saturday Night that night and never lets Vince know about him, there is a good chance that Nash never goes to the WWF and never becomes a star. While it may have sucked to see someone less talented than him become champion first, I'm sure the fact that he made a friend for life and played a pivotal role in helping that friend become successful and provide for his family made him feel alright about it. That, and it worked out pretty well for Shawn in the end. He stayed in WWE for his entire career and is heaalded by Vince and that entire company, while things didn't work out quite as well for Nash, though he was successful.

Wow, great point man. Think about how much history this could have changed... Without Nash, you can only imagine how Shawn's role in the WWF between 93 and 94 changes. As well as the New World Order... Man, if only there was a machine to see this kind of stuff.

jonoaries 11-15-2012 01:17 AM

Re: Shawn Michaels and Diesel
 
Well...I'm not surprised Nash got strapped up first. He's much bigger...and that's all Vince cared about. I think being looked over for guys like Nash & Luger actually pissed HBK off a lot more because he was main eventing shows before either of them came along, well he fucked up a lot but I don't think he saw it that way lol.

Vince was looking for a new big star and he wasn't interested in a small guy like HBK. So Yoko, Bret Luger, Undertaker & Diesel all got main event runs while Shawn blew the roof off the midcard and once Yoko was too fat, Nash got greedy and Luger shot himself in the ass... Vince had no choice....Undertaker & Bret were already solid and he needed a new face...period.

I truly believe, and this is coming from a die hard HBK mark, but Shawn only won the title because Nash & Luger were leaving. If Nash wouldn't have left I don't think Shawn would have gotten the title in 1996.

Elipses Corter 11-15-2012 02:29 AM

Re: Shawn Michaels and Diesel
 
Actually, I don't feel that HBK winning the title was simply because Nash or Luger left but because Bret took a break. Remember, Luger left in September of 1995, while Diesel was still champion and Nash left shortly after the start of HBK's reign. So, I feel Bret taking a break was instrumental in HBK winning the belt because if you notice, WWE really lacked a strong main event heel presence in 95-96. Main reason that, aside from those shitty In Your House PPV's, most of the big title matches were between babyfaces.

As for Diesel's title reign, it's like HBK took Diesel's winning of the belt as a "win for the team", meaning HBK treated it as if he actually won the belt. Several shoot interviews have been conducted, in which it was mentioned that HBK would be in Diesel's ear about what he should do or who not to job to. But even with all that, HBK was still paid more than Diesel, something Nash acknowledges on the WWE Timeline 1995 DVD.

And it actually, if you match up the stories, it wasn't until Nash came along that HBK really became hard to deal with and started fucking with people. So for him, by his buddy winning the belt, a guy he knew Vince would push once he saw his size and charisma, that he would have some sort of control himself. And if you ask me, HBK was still jealous somewhat of Nash getting the title before him. He would always find a way to get wrote off TV or find a way to drop the secondary belt without being pinned because he felt he should have been in the position that Diesel was in. So once Diesel lost the belt to Bret, thats when the tension really escalated between HBK & Bret (over Tammy) and since Bret was on the way out, HBK knew he would be the one to replace him. And to some extent, I feel Diesel didn't take a liking to that and left shortly after Bret.

murder 11-16-2012 04:43 AM

Re: Shawn Michaels and Diesel
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jonoaries (Post 12267624)

I truly believe, and this is coming from a die hard HBK mark, but Shawn only won the title because Nash & Luger were leaving. If Nash wouldn't have left I don't think Shawn would have gotten the title in 1996.

After Mania 10, Vince put Luger in the midcard and I think he never intented to make him world champ ever again. This is probably why Luger left anyway.

HBK won the Rumble in January to set-up his title win. At that point, Vince and nash didn't know anything about Nash leaving anytime soon. It was only after Hall was contacted by WCW that nash came into play. That happened around Mania time while hall was suspended I think.

Nash said in his RF shoot that after he told Vince he was leaving, Vince asked him to put over Taker. So had Nash not agreed to jump ship, he might have broken Takers streak at Mania 12.

dddsssccc 11-16-2012 09:05 AM

Re: Shawn Michaels and Diesel
 
I don't think HBK was ready for the title at the time Nash got it. I really don't think Nash was ready for it either and consequently he did not draw that well as champion IIRC. HBK was ready for the title after his face turn in 95 and eventually got the title in 96. I think he would have got it regardless of Bret wanting a break or not because HBK was ready for it at that point.

jonoaries 11-16-2012 11:24 AM

Re: Shawn Michaels and Diesel
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by murder (Post 12271033)
After Mania 10, Vince put Luger in the midcard and I think he never intented to make him world champ ever again. This is probably why Luger left anyway.

HBK won the Rumble in January to set-up his title win. At that point, Vince and nash didn't know anything about Nash leaving anytime soon. It was only after Hall was contacted by WCW that nash came into play. That happened around Mania time while hall was suspended I think.

Nash said in his RF shoot that after he told Vince he was leaving, Vince asked him to put over Taker. So had Nash not agreed to jump ship, he might have broken Takers streak at Mania 12.

That's true, Luger ruined WM 10 but
remember Luger also wouldn't resign his contract. I'm sure that was also a reason Luger was depushed.

The underlined may be true. It actually makes sense because Hall was withheld from Wrestlemania 12 and then jobbed to Vader on his way out in late April. Nash lost his last 3 big main event matches the Feb IYH, WM 12 and Apr IYH, that tells me vince had some idea Nash was on his way out and was using him to put over the three top faces that intended to stay. You may be right though.

murder 11-16-2012 12:24 PM

Re: Shawn Michaels and Diesel
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jonoaries (Post 12271696)

The underlined may be true. It actually makes sense because Hall was withheld from Wrestlemania 12 and then jobbed to Vader on his way out in late April. Nash lost his last 3 big main event matches the Feb IYH, WM 12 and Apr IYH, that tells me vince had some idea Nash was on his way out and was using him to put over the three top faces that intended to stay. You may be right though.

Well, it is true. Nash explained the situation several times over the years including just recently on the NWO documentary.

About the three jobs. His loss to Bret was necessary to set-up Bret vs Shawn and Diesel vs Taker for Mania 12. That would have happened regardless.

His job to Taker, like I said probably had something to do with him leaving.

With his loss to HBK, I don't know. There is no way Vince would take away the title from HBK just 30 days after he won it. But the question here is whether or not Diesel vs HBK would have happened at that In your House or not if Nash stayed.

Elipses Corter 11-16-2012 04:46 PM

Re: Shawn Michaels and Diesel
 
IMO, jealousy played a big part in Diesel leaving WWE.

On his Timeline 1995 shoot, he said that Shawn made quite a bit more than he did for their match at WM 11, so Diesel demanded more money from Vince. When Scott Hall informed Diesel of how much money Bischoff was willing to pay him, it enticed him to go to WCW but he would stay with Vince if he would match the guranteed contract. Vince couldn't do it because business was down and if made an offer like that to 1 guy, others would be expecting it as well, which leads me to believe HBK would have been jealous.

In a span of 3 months, WWE lost 2 of their top stars. And with Undertaker being more about the company than himself, it left HBK alone to reign atop the WWE. And IMO, that is what HBK wanted. He didn't really have to share the spotlight like he would have if Bret & Diesel resigned contracts at that point.


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