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post #61 of 98 (permalink) Old 10-09-2012, 11:21 PM
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Re: Bill Goldberg: Star or just hype?

Originally Posted by Redead View Post
Yeah, except he himself was basically a Warrior knockoff
He actually was.

Both debut, run through a bunch of lower card guys, win mid card titles, win World title while still mid card champions. Big difference is that Warrior was 10 times more over than Goldberg and if it wasn't due to his own greed, would have been face of the company for years to come.

Goldberg's only purpose was to play hero against Hogan & the NWO. After they broke up, where could you possibly take him without burying the entire roster yet still make him look like a monster?

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post #62 of 98 (permalink) Old 10-09-2012, 11:34 PM
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Re: Bill Goldberg: Star or just hype?

Originally Posted by El Chapo View Post
@KO_Bossy, thats what makes me have doubts about Goldberg, it was a simple character that could have worked for anybody who had the slightest bit of charisma and an athletic background. It's easy to make a guy look so superior when mostly booking him in squash matches. But eventually, that ran it's course and when it came time to actually work a match, Goldberg was exposed. Completely different from Hogan, Flair, Sting, Rock, Austin, Lesnar, those guys could actually work and didn't have to rely on a streak angle to get and remain top stars. Without that streak, Goldberg blended in, simply because he lacked other things that are somewhat required to remain a top guy.

The push of Goldberg was a gift and a curse, as it maintained interest in WCW after the NWO fad began to sizzle but a curse in the sense that it hid Goldberg's flaws for so long that when the streak was over, it was a what's next moment. The evidence is there, without the streak, Goldberg was just another guy, largely due to his weaknesses that only a streak of squash matches could cover up. He didn't have enough charisma to completely ignore the fact that he was an injury prone performer, who was in the right place at the right time. Brock was booked perfectly as a monster who could destroy anybody but when given a legit challenge, could perform at a high level.

It also doesn't help matters that the final moments of the streak and afterwards, WCW was a revolving door of bookers, who made a bigger mess of the company. But at the same time, thats what happens when you book a guy so strong and are completely oblivious to the fact that he was a horrible worker and eventually, it would come to light and did. IMO, that takes a few points away from Goldberg. Arguably a star but definately not top 5 WCW, possibly not even top 10, as so many others possessed more strengths than Goldberg, who was basically just over as fuck. If overness means anything, 95% of the Attitude Era would go down as GOATS.
I get the points your making, and there's a lot of validity to them.

However, I don't think that the streak would have worked for just anyone. If you watch TNA, look at Crimson. That guy was booked like a beast and had the winning streak going for like...over a year. His first loss was at Slammiversary in June. And yet he's a horrendous worker (like, worse than Goldberg), no one cared about him, his matches sucked and once the streak was done, he promptly fell off the face of the earth back into the developmental territories. This guy had a solid look about him, but he was missing the IT factor.

Compared to:

Goldberg just LOOKS intimidating. The tattoo on his shoulder, the bald head, badass beard, body hair, he looks like some sort of pseudo ass kicking lumberjack. Real manly man. He had presence and natural charisma, which was great because it largely forfeited the need for him to speak.

Now its true, Goldberg was not very good in the ring. Then again, Hogan never was either, but he made up for that in other areas. Goldberg was able to as well. I'm not gonna get into a pissing contest by comparing them and having people get offended, but the fact of the matter is that both guys were extremely popular and built successful careers for themselves in wrestling based on attributes that didn't include solid in ring work. There are some parallels you can draw between the two.

It just happened that once Goldberg's streak ended that his flaws became more noticeable, which Hogan never really had to endure. Its not like Hulkamania died and people said "oh wow, in all actuality this Hogan guy really blows as a worker." He had Hulkamania, then the nWo, and kept flip flopping between the two all through his career between the Fed and WCW, so his shortcomings were a lot more protected, I find.

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post #63 of 98 (permalink) Old 10-09-2012, 11:48 PM
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Re: Bill Goldberg: Star or just hype?

Well, I may have exaggerated about anybody being able to make the streak work. As long as the charisma and connection to the crowd is there, it can be done.

I just feel that the Goldberg appeal starts and stops with the streak, as nothing outside of that was remarkable. Sure, he was over but not to the level that people claim. And when I look back at guys with the unstoppable monster gimmick, I look at Rhyno, Vader, Brock Lesnar, as all had enough strengths to cover up their weaknesses.

All in all, I think a streak gimmick is detrimental to the build up of a wrestler. Because, if he has enough flaws to cause fans to question his abilities, it's harder to view the feat in the same light once those flaws are exposed. And thats because it's all you have to judge him on, in a positive manner.

For example, Undertaker has the streak and most newer fans rank him high based solely on that. But, WM wins aside, Undertaker was an all around phenomenal performer, with enough strengths to completely cover up his weaknesses, if any. If you have a guy close enough to complete, a streak gimmick will work. But if you're not a good worker and the streak ends, it comes off as "right place, right time". You have nothing to fall back on because the streak is what got you to the top and when you have to rely on actual skill, you're doomed because your lack of skill was hidden for so long.

Also, green rep @ KO Bossy for having an intelligent debate.

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post #64 of 98 (permalink) Old 10-09-2012, 11:58 PM
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Re: Bill Goldberg: Star or just hype?

The problem with Goldberg was he never tried developing a character or depth

Its the same reason monsters never last long. and goldberg was just a face monster

Undertaker did evolve, thats why he endured for 20 years. He continuously developed and refined himself in new ways to adapt and survive in wrestling

Bad booking fucked Goldberg. He should have won the title at Starrcade. losing the title was controversial but he had to lose eventually. The question is, what to do after he lost. Instead he just got buried by the nwo, and instead of getting revenge, he lost all direction. He was the same guy, but lost the mystique of the streak and just never picked up direction again

Its the same reason his WWE run tanked. It was like "ok, this guy just steamrolled through all of Evolution and beat Triple H, now what?" And thats the problem, Goldberg as a character and person gives you almost zero direction to go in long term

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post #65 of 98 (permalink) Old 10-10-2012, 12:53 AM
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Re: Bill Goldberg: Star or just hype?

Goldberg was tapping into that same aura as Ultimate Warrior. He was a better athlete too. I think that WCWs real problems started when they ended Goldberg's streak far too soon. He should have kept that title an undefeated streak for a year or more. Hell two years it could have worked until he gets robbed of the title. This was a far bigger letdown for me as a fan in those days than the Starcade Hogan vs Sting match or the Finger Poke of Doom.

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post #66 of 98 (permalink) Old 10-10-2012, 01:05 AM
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Re: Bill Goldberg: Star or just hype?

He was a star, but he couldve been bigger if WCW knew how to build a long term superstar. I think if he was in WWE, he couldve been a rival to Austins long term popularity.
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post #67 of 98 (permalink) Old 10-10-2012, 01:10 AM
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Re: Bill Goldberg: Star or just hype?

Originally Posted by Wrestling02370 View Post
He was a star, but he couldve been bigger if WCW knew how to build a long term superstar. I think if he was in WWE, he couldve been a rival to Austins long term popularity.
You have to realize that it was the NWO that got Goldberg over. Without them as rivals to further the streak, nothing was there.

Based on that, what was he to do in WWE back then? Run through the Nation? With the character that WCW portrayed him as, no way he could have rose in WWE with that same character, considering it was the WCW element and lack of face competition for NWO that got him over in the first place.

Without an NWO feud, don't see how any incarnation of Goldberg could have gotten over, as he had no character or wrestling ability and it was squash matches that made him look like a threat.

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post #68 of 98 (permalink) Old 10-10-2012, 06:45 AM
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Re: Bill Goldberg: Star or just hype?

El Chapo, you do realize that Goldberg's WWE debut was one of the most anticipated in WWE history? That we went over the company's #1 star in his debut match? Went over Triple H, Lesnar, and was Undisputed Champion all in a year?

And that this all occurred long after the streak was over?

Stop acting like the streak made Goldberg. Goldberg made the streak. WCW didn't originally plan on booking Goldberg to win that way. They just rode the wave. And when the streak was over, Goldberg was still over. Just watch his WWE debut.
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post #69 of 98 (permalink) Old 10-10-2012, 06:49 AM
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Re: Bill Goldberg: Star or just hype?

Can I pick both?

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post #70 of 98 (permalink) Old 10-10-2012, 10:44 AM
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Re: Bill Goldberg: Star or just hype?

Originally Posted by El Chapo View Post
Are you serious?

Cena is 10 times a better wrestler than Goldberg.
you drunk ? look who cena wrestles and everytime he makes that 5 knuckle you see he hits always on the floor, when you compare both you see goldberg is a man and cena a kid...

other question, will goldberg ever return if for a one last match or something else ?
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