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Old 10-08-2012, 06:55 PM   #41 (permalink)
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Default Re: Bill Goldberg: Star or just hype?

Anyone who says Goldberg wasn't a star is simply deluded.

He was a megastar and a household name on the calibre of The Rock and Steve Austin, managing to go toe to toe against Austin. What he did can best be described as a phenomenom, something we never before witnessed and because of that he was self picked by Hogan to win the belt on live TV, not many people can boost about winning over Hogan.

He was the Ultimate Warrior to Rocks Savage and Austin's Hogan.
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Old 10-08-2012, 07:02 PM   #42 (permalink)
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Default Re: Bill Goldberg: Star or just hype?

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Originally Posted by TheGreatBanana View Post
Anyone who says Goldberg wasn't a star is simply deluded.

He was a megastar and a household name on the calibre of The Rock and Steve Austin, managing to go toe to toe against Austin. What he did can best be described as a phenomenom, something we never before witnessed and because of that he was self picked by Hogan to win the belt on live TV, not many people can boost about winning over Hogan.

He was the Ultimate Warrior to Rocks Savage and Austin's Hogan.
It's not that he wasn't a star but the streak was definately overrated. It's genius booking by WCW but after he ran through every jobber and mid card guy on the roster, WCW was forced to match him up with equal competition, which is when he got exposed. He was a sloppy worker that was pushed to the moon. So, WCW tried their best to hide his weaknesses but eventually, could no longer cover them.

In retrospect, WCW could have booked Jerry Flynn the same exact way and he would look like a star. Nothing much special with Goldberg, as the streak is the only thing that stands out. Take that away and nothing else is memorable about him, aside from being the man that ended Bret Hart's career and the guy who put in a half ass effort at WM 20.
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Old 10-08-2012, 10:19 PM   #43 (permalink)
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Default Re: Bill Goldberg: Star or just hype?

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Originally Posted by El Chapo View Post
It's not that he wasn't a star but the streak was definately overrated. It's genius booking by WCW but after he ran through every jobber and mid card guy on the roster, WCW was forced to match him up with equal competition, which is when he got exposed. He was a sloppy worker that was pushed to the moon. So, WCW tried their best to hide his weaknesses but eventually, could no longer cover them.

In retrospect, WCW could have booked Jerry Flynn the same exact way and he would look like a star. Nothing much special with Goldberg, as the streak is the only thing that stands out. Take that away and nothing else is memorable about him, aside from being the man that ended Bret Hart's career and the guy who put in a half ass effort at WM 20.
Jerry Flynn are you kidding me? /Facepalm.

Goldberg was a character, there was little things to him that made him that much special, just look at how Ryback is now imitadating him. Sure he was sloppy, but you got to remember he wasn't a wrestler, he was a football player brought in by Sting, whom they developed and built up, even though he was able to perform moves, he wasn't allowed to just just like Cena isn't allowed to perform a greater variety of moves. Goldbergs character was pretty much self made just like Austin's, who got his name from a cold cup of tea and he rolled with it, just like Goldberg rolled with the who's next line.

Even today WWE heavily markets the Undertakers streak. Around the time no one even knew he had a streak and they started hyping it since WM17. A streak is inspiring to watch and watching Goldbergs was just that.

He may have ended Bret Hart career, my favourite wrestler, and it is grand shame that Bret couldn't show the world who truly was the best, as I firmly believe had he returned when Michaels did, Michaels would have looked second rate.

But what is done is done, we cannot change the events and the events say that Goldberg was once a star calibre of The Rock and Austin and could have been a greater star in WWE. The Rock and Austin were firmly behind Goldberg, Rock wanting to face Goldberg in WM 19 and Austin advising Goldberg. They knew his star power, but idiots like Triple H dented his momentum.
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Old 10-08-2012, 10:24 PM   #44 (permalink)
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Default Re: Bill Goldberg: Star or just hype?

Star and a big one at that.
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Old 10-08-2012, 10:37 PM   #45 (permalink)
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Default Re: Bill Goldberg: Star or just hype?

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Originally Posted by TheGreatBanana View Post
Jerry Flynn are you kidding me? /Facepalm.

Goldberg was a character, there was little things to him that made him that much special, just look at how Ryback is now imitadating him. Sure he was sloppy, but you got to remember he wasn't a wrestler, he was a football player brought in by Sting, whom they developed and built up, even though he was able to perform moves, he wasn't allowed to just just like Cena isn't allowed to perform a greater variety of moves. Goldbergs character was pretty much self made just like Austin's, who got his name from a cold cup of tea and he rolled with it, just like Goldberg rolled with the who's next line.

Even today WWE heavily markets the Undertakers streak. Around the time no one even knew he had a streak and they started hyping it since WM17. A streak is inspiring to watch and watching Goldbergs was just that.

He may have ended Bret Hart career, my favourite wrestler, and it is grand shame that Bret couldn't show the world who truly was the best, as I firmly believe had he returned when Michaels did, Michaels would have looked second rate.

But what is done is done, we cannot change the events and the events say that Goldberg was once a star calibre of The Rock and Austin and could have been a greater star in WWE. The Rock and Austin were firmly behind Goldberg, Rock wanting to face Goldberg in WM 19 and Austin advising Goldberg. They knew his star power, but idiots like Triple H dented his momentum.
You're completely misunderstanding my Jerry Flynn comparison.

What I'm saying is anybody could have been given the Goldberg push and had the same result. The Goldberg push proved that actual wrestling ability wasn't required. Apart from Hogan, Nash and DDP, most of Goldberg's matches before Starrcade were squash matches. Whenever faced with legit competition, he was exposed. All I'm saying is, anybody can appear to be a star if given what Goldberg was given and it was all based on hype, reason being why his WWE run was a bust.

WCW was stacked at the time but it was also a complete mess. A streak gimmick wasn't really given notoriety at that time, so thats what made Goldberg work. But streak aside, what really made him standout, to the point that he wasn't replaceable? Don't blame Triple H for Goldberg's horrible WWE run. It was something clearly lacking in Goldberg that prevented him from having the success guys like Jericho, Booker T and even Rey Mysterio had. He wasn't a good wrestler, just hyped to the moon.

And don't compare his streak to Undertaker's and try to make them sound the same. While WWE does market Taker's WM streak, it's his character, talent and ability that allows him to claim the title of the best big man, a true star and a legend. Taker wouldn't be any less of a star without the streak. Can't say the same for Goldberg, as he wasn't a good wrestler, couldn't cut a promo and was injury prone.
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Old 10-09-2012, 12:35 AM   #46 (permalink)
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Default Re: Bill Goldberg: Star or just hype?

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Originally Posted by El Chapo View Post
You're completely misunderstanding my Jerry Flynn comparison.

What I'm saying is anybody could have been given the Goldberg push and had the same result. The Goldberg push proved that actual wrestling ability wasn't required. Apart from Hogan, Nash and DDP, most of Goldberg's matches before Starrcade were squash matches. Whenever faced with legit competition, he was exposed. All I'm saying is, anybody can appear to be a star if given what Goldberg was given and it was all based on hype, reason being why his WWE run was a bust.

WCW was stacked at the time but it was also a complete mess. A streak gimmick wasn't really given notoriety at that time, so thats what made Goldberg work. But streak aside, what really made him standout, to the point that he wasn't replaceable? Don't blame Triple H for Goldberg's horrible WWE run. It was something clearly lacking in Goldberg that prevented him from having the success guys like Jericho, Booker T and even Rey Mysterio had. He wasn't a good wrestler, just hyped to the moon.

And don't compare his streak to Undertaker's and try to make them sound the same. While WWE does market Taker's WM streak, it's his character, talent and ability that allows him to claim the title of the best big man, a true star and a legend. Taker wouldn't be any less of a star without the streak. Can't say the same for Goldberg, as he wasn't a good wrestler, couldn't cut a promo and was injury prone.
While I agree with most of your points, Goldberg had the charisma and the look to make this run special.

True the WCW handled it well until they overexposed him and gave him extended camera time. Heck the camera that started following him from the locker room cut his pop a little. For most of the streak they wisely kept him off the mic and let his look and facial expression do the talking. I do think another wrestler could have had a great streak obviously, but Goldberg did contribute to it being other worldly. So I would call him a star. I also don't think your average wrestling fan gave a rip that he botched an occasional move or did not look like a polished vet. They just wanted him to rip people's heads off. I would compare him to the the Road Warriors who were every bit as green in the early days, but we did not care back then, we just wanted them to kill.

I am not sure who to blame for his WWE run. It was just handled bad. The writers, Goldberg himself, I am not sure? Everything was wrong, from them letting him wear clothes that made him appear smaller, to letting him have the mic for long periods of time.They did nothing to help promote the monster they had. The fans wanted to love him, that was evident when he first appeared there, but someone short circuted his run. It may have been Goldberg himself.

But the op's question is very legit, and to dismiss without considering that maybe the WCW hype machine had as much to do with his success is the real delusion.

In the end I would say it was 45% Goldberg's look, 35% the hype, and 20% the fans wanting someone new to rally behind.

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Old 10-09-2012, 01:09 AM   #47 (permalink)
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Default Re: Bill Goldberg: Star or just hype?

You're right, Goldberg did have charisma. However, as long as you have charisma, the other traits can be developed and improved but that didn't happen with Goldberg.

Don't get me wrong, I was a HUGE Goldberg fan as a kid, I didn't care about wrestling ability. But looking back, he was just a well booked lackluster performer with charisma, look and athletic ability as the only strengths he had in the business.

It's just like in another thread, where people were calling Goldberg top 5 in WCW. Based on what, his charisma, his streak? The impact of his streak is debatable, because without the NWO as the antagonists, it likely wouldn't have worked. So, his actual impact is limited. As far as his other strengths, he did have charisma, the look and athletic ability but was nowhere near complete as an overall performer.

I'm not saying he wasn't a star but he really isn't as big of a deal as WCW pushed him as, mainly because of they way they built him up. IMO, everything in wrestling eventually has a pay off. If you build up a guy as unbeatable, there has to come a time where he is defeated, to keep interest in the product. And when that time came, WCW had no other logical direction they could take Goldberg in, without exposing his weaknesses. The streak was the only thing that set him apart from anybody else, without that, he was just another guy, because WCW put so much stock into that and didn't know what would be done next.

I look at a guy like Luger and the only thing that sets him apart from Goldberg is lack of charisma. He had the look, agility and was a slightly better wrestler, yet gets nowhere near the praise Goldberg gets. Why? Because of the streak, which makes me believe that you can book and build anybody up like Goldberg, with the same traits and get the same result.

He was replaceable, not a rare gem like people claim, as anybody with charisma could have played the same role, if booked how WCW booked him. And the reason why he didn't work in WWE was due to his peak being reached with the streak. He had no other actual strengths that would have earned him a legendary status in WWE. Brock played the role 10 times better and was a thousand times better in the ring. If Sid was as charismatic, he could have reached those heights. Hell, even 911 could have. But unlike Brock, Goldberg had only 1 accolade that would seperate him from everybody else and when it ran it's course, the Goldberg appeal was dead, IMO.
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Old 10-09-2012, 01:12 AM   #48 (permalink)
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Default Re: Bill Goldberg: Star or just hype?

the wwe run failed because by that point people realised Goldberg was a one trick pony

he had no character, and no attempt at trying to find one

he just had the streak and mowed people down. when that was gone, people got bored. not to mention goldberg has zero passion
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Old 10-09-2012, 01:16 AM   #49 (permalink)
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Default Re: Bill Goldberg: Star or just hype?

He was a major star...so much so that the WWE are now copying his character exactly. There literally are no differences. Amazing really.
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Old 10-09-2012, 01:35 AM   #50 (permalink)
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Default Re: Bill Goldberg: Star or just hype?

But, what was Goldberg's character? An unstoppable power guy, a gimmick that has been dozens of times? His character wasn't the streak, that was the appeal. Goldberg never had a character. He served 1 purpose, main rival of the NWO. When that was done, so was the Goldberg appeal. If he had a character, he would have remained a big deal afterwards.
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