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Old 08-07-2012, 09:27 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Default Re: Questions about The Rock's career.

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1) I don't think I've seen a top guy change between heel and face so many times. We talk about how much of gamble it would be to turn Cena, but The Rock seemed to do it many times in his prime.
Rock turned at SVS 1998 to create a brilliant corporate champion and the big money match with Austin at WM15.

Turned babyface in April 1999 because he was too over to be a heel and the crowd begged to push him as a top babyface. They gave teasers for it week after week.

Turned heel in 2003 based on his huge success in Hollywood to create the iconic Hollywood Rock. But again, he was too entertaining and the crowd begged him to turn babyface and he did in May. That's it.

His connection with the fanbase is above that heel/babyface status. It's too rare and special to lock in such limited borders.

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2) Why did he always have short reigns. I don't think a top guy has been so unprotected. He got his ass kicked many of times.
The Rock and Ric Flair, two once a generation talent that you can book how you want and they come back the next week the same monster. Rock never needed the protection, never wanted the protection. He himself said on his 2002 "Just Bring It" DVD that he always wanted to look human because he remembered how he hated the unrealistic Superman act. Instead of that, he was able to gain even more support from the audience when he comes back after a beatdown with all his presence and all his unbelievable charisma, and cuts another money promo from his endless list. He used his superiority, in talent and position to help others. Which is the same reason he never needed the belt, not because he was a bigger draw chasing it, but because he was above it in the eyes of the fans. Even with that, when it was time to take the belt, he put it over as the biggest and most important thing in his life which made all his runs successful and memorable.

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3) He's beaten Hogan, Austin and Cena but what's his real record against top guys? I know he lost convincingly to both Brock and Goldberg.
He beat every wrestler he worked with in a big program and almost every big name. From Austin to Taker to Flair. He lost a lot, but it was always in a smart and creative to make his opponent look good even when it wasn't 100% clean and his character strong. As for the two matches, The Rock made "Brock Lesnar" at Summerslam 2002, Rock, the face of the company passed him the "torch" and put him on the map all in the same match. before that the only reaction he was getting was "Goldberg" chants, after that people realized that he's the real deal. In 2003, Rock wanted to wrestle Goldberg, it was supposed to happen at WM19. He made Goldberg look like a beast and gave him first momentum in the company with a first win.

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Originally Posted by Senor Ding Dong View Post
2. He didn't really need the belt to be one of the top guys in the company, he could be messing around in a temporary tag team like The Rock 'n' Sock and still be drawing one of the largest audiences in Raw history. Plus unlike certain other guys such as Hogan, Austin and HHH, The Rock was fairly liberal with jobbing to up and comers to get them over, he was pretty good to the other wrestlers. This is a guy that has a loss to the Hurricane on his record! His character never relied on being unbeaten, a one man wrecking machine or anything like that, it was just based on personality, so could survive not being champion. A random example was The Rock's program with Jericho through the latter half of 01 and beginning of 02. If you read Jericho's book, you'll see The Rock really pushed for Jericho to be booked well and really worked hard to make Jericho look gold and Jericho did. Contrast this with HHH, who although always putting on great matches with Jericho, has always looked to bury him instead of getting him over.

3.With both Brock and Goldberg he was on his way out and jobbed to them to get them over, like I said above. Everyone seems to think he has an awful record against Austin but ignoring RAW/Smackdown, they're 2-2, Austin has WM15 and 17, The Rock has WM19 and the Survivor Series Winner Takes All Match. Against HHH he has a pretty bad record but that's partly political and partly a case that the 2000 storyline called for The Rock to always be on the backfoot and chasing the title. The Rock vs Jericho tilts more to Jericho, The Rock has plenty of wins on TV shows but Chris won at No Mercy 2001, Vengeance 2001 and Royal Rumble 2002. Which is a pretty impressive run, which shows just how much The Rock worked to put certain guys over...then Jericho ran into HHH, who buried him completely at WM and The Rock's work was wasted as Jericho went back to mid card.
This is all spot on. Before HHH destroyed him in the WM18, Rock took him under his wing and put him over all over the program in 3 PPVs, RAWs, promos etc, Jericho was Rock's project in 2001-2002 and he made him a legit main eventer. They had amazing chemistry and Rock always made him look strong, Jericho beat him 3-4 times in a row on PPV and even their match on RAW in November where Rock won, he was still on the ground after that selling the WOJ. Of course that was all for nothing after Stephanie and HHH completely ruined him. That program also led to problems in 2003 when Rock wanted to put Booker T over big until he realized that it's going to be the same situation.

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Originally Posted by Senor Ding Dong View Post
That wasn't because of HHH though, that was because of Jericho and Steph, outside of The Rock, no one did more than Steph to get Jericho over in the WWF. People may complain about her these days but she did some good stuff back in the Attitude era. Who got the victory? HHH. Who did the work to get Jericho into the place where that match was possible? Stephanie McMahon.

As for the rest of HHH burying Jericho. He tried to bury Jericho when Y2J first entered the WWF, constantly politicking against him backstage and then in their WM programme, he rejected practically every suggestion Jericho had, making Jericho look absolutely weak and contributing to the Steph angle that made Jericho look like nothing more than Steph's bitch. On the flip side HHH made himself look brilliant in everything they did and refused Jericho any upper hand. In his book Jericho seems pretty annoyed about the whole thing and is critical of it.



If you consider the conclusion to the Invasion angle 'A B-Show PPV' then that's up to you but it was easily the 2nd most important PPV of that year after obviously Wrestlemania, much more important than SummerSlam or the Rumble that year. It's not WM but it was still big.



If we look at them from when Hunter was given his push (Fully Loaded '99 onwards) it's 5-3 Hunter and his title reigns were much longer than The Rocks. Admittedly the match up is a bit closer than I remember but HHH was still in the ascendency in that feud but that's what did great business at the time, so it's understandable. I certainly loved watching The Rock chasing the title at the time and Backlash 2000's ending is one of the best of the Attitude Era.



If you read Jericho's book then you'd see that Jericho had no problem losing unclean if it was done correctly, he just disliked when it was done all the time. He loved the Royal Rumble match, thought it was brilliant and he cheated about three times in that match to get the unclean win. It doesn't matter whether the wins were clean or not, Jericho was playing the cowardly heel and the matches were booked to reflect that. Here's an exact quote from his book:



When Jericho wanted to continue his heel run by amping it up a bit by sleeping with Steph, HHH rejected that and instead we ended up with Jericho as Steph's bitch, which totally shot through any credible he had made as a win at all costs cheating heel. He just became a whiny cheat that could only retain via cheating, rather than a cheat who you love to hate. That was HHH's fault, nearly half a year of developing that character was destroyed because HHH didn't want himself to look weak. Jericho's exact quote:


A couple chapters later:


Sounds like burying to me, part of it was Vince not having faith but HHH contributed a lot as well and it's documented that he never thought much of Jericho. If you want to see how much that did bury Jericho, he didn't get a rematch at Backlash...hell he wasn't even on the card! He got a Hell in the Cell match at the next PPV which he obviously lost and then by King of the Ring he was losing to RVD in the Semis...what was the first Undisputed Champion even doing in the Semis of KOTR?

The Rock put over Jericho massively. HHH buried his chances of remaining at upper card level, if Jericho had been given just one victory over HHH then it would have been enough. Lose at WM, win at Backlash, then lose in the Hell in a Cell match. Instead he got an awful WM build and lost the Hell in a Cell match and was then cast back into mid card. Basically The Rock's entire post Booker T 2001 had been wasted.
Again, 100%.
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Old 08-08-2012, 12:52 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Default Re: Questions about The Rock's career.

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Originally Posted by admiremyclone View Post
I believe Rocky was supposed to face Booker T on RAW in early 2003 during his Hollywood heel gimmick. He was going to put Booker over because he wanted to help build Booker on the way to Wrestlemania. He then objected because they decided that Triple H was going to win at Wrestlemania when pretty much everyone thought Booker should win, so Rock thought it was a waste of a put-over if Triple H was going to ultimately win again.
And Booker T was infact set to go over but Vince mcmahon changed the finish of the match because Goldberg signed the deal at the last minute.

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I think perhaps he was remembering back to how he worked hard to make Jericho credible in late 2001/early 2002 only for Triple H to come back and ruin it all.
Jericho was always going to drop the undisputed title to HHH on his return, I expect Rock knew this perfectly well. The feud turned out to be poor but my problem is people making it as if it was intentional by HHH to ruin jericho, it wasnt.. as a matter of fact it was actually Jericho's idea to involve Stephanie in their feud when HHH was against it when he first returned.




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Originally Posted by Senor Ding Dong View Post
That wasn't because of HHH though, that was because of Jericho and Steph, outside of The Rock, no one did more than Steph to get Jericho over in the WWF. People may complain about her these days but she did some good stuff back in the Attitude era. Who got the victory? HHH. Who did the work to get Jericho into the place where that match was possible? Stephanie McMahon.
It is true that Stephanie did a lot more for Jericho but in that feud in 2000, HHH did put him over. Losing =/= burying. Do you really understand the term at all? Jericho himself would tell you that feud with HHH helped him a lot. It was his first main event push FFS.


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As for the rest of HHH burying Jericho. He tried to bury Jericho when Y2J first entered the WWF, constantly politicking against him backstage and then in their WM programme, he rejected practically every suggestion Jericho had, making Jericho look absolutely weak and contributing to the Steph angle that made Jericho look like nothing more than Steph's bitch. On the flip side HHH made himself look brilliant in everything they did and refused Jericho any upper hand. In his book Jericho seems pretty annoyed about the whole thing and is critical of it.
Makes no sense, HHH agreed to work with Jericho in his prime. If he had a problem, why would he agree to work with him?

Again, 2002 was a mess. You're trying to blame HHH for everything. It was Jericho's idea to involve Stephanie in their undisputed title feud not HHH's. It turned out to be poor, there is no proof that says HHH intentionally ruined Jericho EVER in his career. Triple H has said in interviews he was disappointed with the feud. You read Jericho's book, thats one side of the story. You dont know what really happened unless HHH or Vince talk about it.



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If we look at them from when Hunter was given his push (Fully Loaded '99 onwards) it's 5-3 Hunter and his title reigns were much longer than The Rocks. Admittedly the match up is a bit closer than I remember but HHH was still in the ascendency in that feud but that's what did great business at the time, so it's understandable. I certainly loved watching The Rock chasing the title at the time and Backlash 2000's ending is one of the best of the Attitude Era.
I explained why the Rock's title reigns were shorter. He was huge draw as the guy chasing the title. In their prime year 2000, HHH never beat the Rock clean.


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If you read Jericho's book then you'd see that Jericho had no problem losing unclean if it was done correctly, he just disliked when it was done all the time. He loved the Royal Rumble match, thought it was brilliant and he cheated about three times in that match to get the unclean win. It doesn't matter whether the wins were clean or not, Jericho was playing the cowardly heel and the matches were booked to reflect that. Here's an exact quote from his book:
Jericho WON unclean. Rock was his fav opponent, he probably loved their little feud win or lose.

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When Jericho wanted to continue his heel run by amping it up a bit by sleeping with Steph, HHH rejected that
Yes that is true but what Jericho didnt understand is thats how it works in pro-wrestling. The Top draw gets to make the decisions. When HHH was the champion in early years, it was Rock and Austin, his top draw opponents, who made the decisions regarding their feuds, not the champion Triple H. Austin has always refused to lose clean/drop the title to HHH. He gets to make that call because he was the top draw. It was entirely the same situation here with HHH-Jericho. HHH was the hot returning babyface. And even then, it was Jericho's idea to involve Stephanie.


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He just became a whiny cheat that could only retain via cheating, rather than a cheat who you love to hate. That was HHH's fault, nearly half a year of developing that character was destroyed because HHH didn't want himself to look weak.
Heels are always whiny cheats, how the fuck is that HHH's fault? Jericho even in 2008 was a whiny character. He never had the credibility to be a badass heel like HHH or Austin were in early 2001. I dont know how thats even HHH's fault.


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Jericho's exact quote:
Again, this is one side of the story. Jericho's fav opponent is the rock and he liked working with him, so that proves what exactly? He knew he was going to lose to HHH at mania. The only reason he even became champion was because Austin refused to lose.

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In the week leading up to WrestleMania, OTR had a WWE Superstar as the sole guest each night for the entire thirty minutes. First up was HHH. I was watching the interview, and when host Michael Landsberg asked him what he thought of his opponent for Mania, I couldn’t believe his response. “Jericho can be as good as he wants to be but he’s missing something. I don’t know what that something is, but it’s keeping him from being what he could be.” He was basically telling everybody that I wasn’t living up to my potential. The first rule I learned about interviews from Bulldog Bob Brown in Calgary was you always put over your opponent. That way if you win, you’ve really beat somebody. It didn’t matter if he thought I was missing something, I was the Undisputed World Champion! I felt that it wasn’t the best way to sell the huge match coming up in only a few days, and it annoyed me.
I dont know if Jericho knew this but OFF THE RECORD with Landsberg was not character interviews in kayfabe.

This is the part he is talking about, you can see how the question was specifically phrased by landsberg ...

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Micheal Landsberg : Now you go against chris jericho. I mean this whole Interview that we have done is, its not about wrestling. Its not about talking in character but i wanna ask you about the Wrestler chris jericho, very near and dear to a lot of Canadians right? How close is he to the top? He holds the Title right now but i dont think that a lot of people look at him as the ultimate superstar. How close is he and what does he have to do to be there?

Triple h : Its difficult to say, I think Chris is just a step underneath that top tier. Why, i am not sure. I think there is a small piece of the puzzle missing. And Chris will get it i am sure. You know what i mean, its there. It sometimes takes a couple of shots at it to get it right, its not a overnight thing. Some guys "BOOM" they hit it and it just explodes and they take off, and some guys it takes a slow simmer you know, and in my career, i have had that slow simmer but when it gets boiling, its really boiling. I think its the same path chris is headed.
It was not character interviews. Considering Jericho has been in that show answering questions, I dont see why he is complaining about a honest non-kayfabe answer from Triple H.


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Sounds like burying to me, part of it was Vince not having faith but HHH contributed a lot as well and it's documented that he never thought much of Jericho.
Documented where? Internet BS myth. Again, I dont know how HHH agrees to work with Jericho if he never thought much of him. HHH is a main eventer, a superstar working with HHH means he is working main events. Now why would HHH wants to work a main event program against Jericho if he never liked him? I dont get that logic at all.


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if you want to see how much that did bury Jericho, he didn't get a rematch at Backlash
Thats because Hogan was hot as hell in that period. He was so hot that they put undisputed title on him at backlash. Triple H lost the title in just one month.

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He got a Hell in the Cell match at the next PPV which he obviously lost and then by King of the Ring he was losing to RVD in the Semis...what was the first Undisputed Champion even doing in the Semis of KOTR?
First undisputed champion is a kayfabe accomplishment. In real world, being a draw is all that matters. Jericho, though highly talented, never drew as a top guy. He had his short little run on top because of HHH's injury/return but with the level of top talents in that year, Rock,HHH,Austin,Hogan,Taker,Shawn...he was inevitably going to fall back to the midcard no matter what.


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if Jericho had been given just one victory over HHH then it would have been enough.
Nope. Thats not how it works. One victory over HHH would have made absolutely no difference.

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Lose at WM, win at Backlash, then lose in the Hell in a Cell match. Instead he got an awful WM build and lost the Hell in a Cell match and was then cast back into mid card.
You dont get it, thats not how it works. Making Chris Jericho legit takes more than just one victory over HHH and a couple of screwjob wins over the Rock. Vince Mcmahon never even saw him as a big player to begin with.


Anyways, My point is simple, HHH DID NOT BURY Chris Jericho. People can blame him all they want but the truth is that the feud, which should have been great, was poorly booked and turned into a mess thanks to stephanie's involvement. There is no proof that HHH intentionally wanted to ruin Chris Jericho on his return. HHH survived the whole mess because he was a established star, Jericho inevitably fell back into the mid card partly because the upper tier was filled with the top stars where Jericho just didnt fit in, and partly because Vince Mcmahon's lack of faith in Jericho. None of this is HHH's fault, he was part of the mess not the cause of it. Right now, from what I understand after listening to their interviews they seem to be friends backstage.

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Old 08-08-2012, 01:02 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Default Re: Questions about The Rock's career

To add to Rock putting people over, look at the superstars who had their first World Title reigns by defeating The Rock - Mick Foley (1999), Kurt Angle (2000), Chris Jericho (2001), and Brock Lesnar (2002). Each of those moments are arguably the biggest moments of those superstar's careers and Rock did A+ work with all of them in those programs.
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Old 08-08-2012, 03:45 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Default Re: Questions about The Rock's career

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Originally Posted by Clique View Post
To add to Rock putting people over, look at the superstars who had their first World Title reigns by defeating The Rock - Mick Foley (1999), Kurt Angle (2000), Chris Jericho (2001), and Brock Lesnar (2002). Each of those moments are arguably the biggest moments of those superstar's careers and Rock did A+ work with all of them in those programs.
Kurt Angle had the most pathetic reign of AE in 2000. No one even remembers that happened. It was Foley's biggest moment because of the ratings bump, not because of the rock. Personally even as a fan, I never really liked Jericho's undisputed title reign (even though he likes to brag about it), it mostly sucked with no clean pinfalls and abruptly ended by triple h who lost the title to hogan, who then lost it to taker. Jericho's best reign would be his 2008 run and Shawn/Jericho would always be the highlight of his career and rightfully so. Its THE GOAT feud. Lesnar is probably only one who could legitimately claim to have gained from working with the rock but even in that case many others helped make him a star like Hogan, taker, kurt etc.

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Old 08-08-2012, 04:40 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Default Re: Questions about The Rock's career

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Originally Posted by abidwet View Post
Kurt Angle had the most pathetic reign of AE in 2000. No one even remembers that happened. It was Foley's biggest moment because of the ratings bump, not because of the rock. Personally even as a fan, I never really liked Jericho's undisputed title reign (even though he likes to brag about it), it mostly sucked with no clean pinfalls and abruptly ended by triple h who lost the title to hogan, who then lost it to taker. Jericho's best reign would be his 2008 run and Shawn/Jericho would always be the highlight of his career and rightfully so. Its THE GOAT feud. Lesnar is probably only one who could legitimately claim to have gained from working with the rock but even in that case many others helped make him a star like Hogan, taker, kurt etc.
Y2J was awesome as Undisputed champ, Hogan should've ended his title reign Hogan/Jericho Backlash not HHH, really liked Angle's push 2000 won WWF title No Mercy, won KOTR, list goes on & on
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Old 08-08-2012, 09:59 AM   #26 (permalink)
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Default Re: Questions about The Rock's career

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Originally Posted by abidwet View Post
Kurt Angle had the most pathetic reign of AE in 2000. No one even remembers that happened. It was Foley's biggest moment because of the ratings bump, not because of the rock. Personally even as a fan, I never really liked Jericho's undisputed title reign (even though he likes to brag about it), it mostly sucked with no clean pinfalls and abruptly ended by triple h who lost the title to hogan, who then lost it to taker. Jericho's best reign would be his 2008 run and Shawn/Jericho would always be the highlight of his career and rightfully so. Its THE GOAT feud. Lesnar is probably only one who could legitimately claim to have gained from working with the rock but even in that case many others helped make him a star like Hogan, taker, kurt etc.
This is exactly why I said "arguably" their biggest moments and Foley going over the Corporate Champion is a huge deal (HIAC w/ Taker is probably Foley's most legendary moment). Rock was the guy holding the belt with all the heat and he took the pin (albeit with interference but no one ever thought it could happen). So was Angle going down in history as defeating Rock for his first World Title in less than a year with the company. It was already mention Rock made Jericho look like a legit top heel (yeah heels cheat but he wasn't made to look like a bitch like in the Trips feud) when he "finally won the Big One" it was extra special and significant because he went over "The Great One". The Next Big Thing arriving and becoming the youngest WWE Champion ever is speaks for itself going over Rock in one of the biggest and most memorable SummerSlam matches ever.

The booking after the Rock worked with these men has nothing to do with what I said about those moments being significant and the point that Rock dropped the belt to them. Rock wasn't booking those reigns after he was done with them. I was just pointing out that he played an significant role in a few careers of guys winning their first World Titles.
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