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Old 08-07-2012, 02:56 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Default Re: Questions about The Rock's career.

HHH is jelly of everyone who's more over than him.
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Old 08-07-2012, 03:00 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Default Re: Questions about The Rock's career.

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Originally Posted by Senor Ding Dong View Post
2. He didn't really need the belt to be one of the top guys in the company, he could be messing around in a temporary tag team like The Rock 'n' Sock and still be drawing one of the largest audiences in Raw history. Plus unlike certain other guys such as Hogan, Austin and HHH, The Rock was fairly liberal with jobbing to up and comers to get them over, he was pretty good to the other wrestlers. This is a guy that has a loss to the Hurricane on his record! His character never relied on being unbeaten, a one man wrecking machine or anything like that, it was just based on personality, so could survive not being champion. A random example was The Rock's program with Jericho through the latter half of 01 and beginning of 02. If you read Jericho's book, you'll see The Rock really pushed for Jericho to be booked well and really worked hard to make Jericho look gold and Jericho did. Contrast this with HHH, who although always putting on great matches with Jericho, has always looked to bury him instead of getting him over.
How did Triple H bury Jericho? Chris Jericho's first main event push was against HHH in 2000, their feud ended with a classic LMS match that put over Jericho big time.

Year 2002 was all messed up. The original plan for WM 18 was Austin-HHH, Austin was set to become first undisputed champion at vengeance by pinning chris jericho and he was suppose to drop the title to Triple H on his return match at mania 18. But Austin, as always, refused to lose/drop the title to HHH. So the plans were changed and they went with Chris jericho all the way to mania. About the poor build to their feud, HHH has himself said that he was disappointed with how the feud went down.

6:35, 09:10 - 10:02


Vince Mcmahon never saw Jericho as a big main event player, he became the first undisputed champion because Austin refused to lose, and he headlined mania because of HHH.

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3.With both Brock and Goldberg he was on his way out and jobbed to them to get them over, like I said above. Everyone seems to think he has an awful record against Austin but ignoring RAW/Smackdown, they're 2-2, Austin has WM15 and 17, The Rock has WM19 and the Survivor Series Winner Takes All Match.
Losing at Wrestlemania and on a b-show ppv is not the same thing. Rock's record against austin is infact poor.

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Against HHH he has a pretty bad record
No. Win/loss is pretty even between them.. I'm sure they fought at the house shows in '99 and 2000 a million times, but off the top of my head:

IYH 13 - Rock beat Hunter for IC Title (granted, they were both under their old gimmicks, but a win's a win)
Fully Loaded '98 - Draw in a 2/3 Falls match
Summerslam '98 - Hunter beat Rock in a Ladder match for the IC Title
Raw in January '99 - Rock beat Hunter in an I Quit match for the WWF Title
Over The Edge '99 - Rock beat Hunter by DQ
Raw in May '99 - Rock beat Hunter in a cage match
Fully Loaded '99 - Hunter beat Rock for #1 contendership
Unforgiven '99 - Hunter pinned Rock in the 6-man Challenge
Rebellion '99 - Hunter beat Rock in a cage match
WrestleMania 16 - Hunter beat Rock
Backlash '00 - Rock beat Hunter
Judgment Day '00 - Hunter beat Rock
KOTR '00 - Rock won Hunter's WWF Title (though he pinned Vince)
Summerslam '00 - Rock pinned Hunter in a triple threat match

Again, those are just the major ones off the top of my head. By no means was the HHH/Rock feud one-sided for either man. HHH, being the super over heel hardly won clean against the super over babyface Rock at the time.

Quote:
The Rock vs Jericho tilts more to Jericho, The Rock has plenty of wins on TV shows but Chris won at No Mercy 2001, Vengeance 2001 and Royal Rumble 2002. Which is a pretty impressive run, which shows just how much The Rock worked to put certain guys over...then Jericho ran into HHH, who buried him completely at WM and The Rock's work was wasted as Jericho went back to mid card.
And none of those were clean. Rock did put him over even in defeat but if he really wanted to make Chris jericho legit, he probably should have lost clean more. I think Rock pinned jericho clean in a smackdown match in 02. Again, HHH did not bury jericho, learn the meaning of the term first.

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Originally Posted by MoneyMay View Post
I've read before that there was friction between Rock and HHH's due to the latter's treatment of Jericho. Anyone read/ heard similar?
There was no "friction" in their relationship but observer once reported Rock refused to work with Booker T in 02, because he was heading into a mania program with HHH. Triple H has always named Rock and Shawn as his two favorite opponents to work with.






To answer Op's questions -

1. The Rock became top draw by late 99, so he turned only once as top draw/star of the company.

2. The Rock has ALWAYS been a much bigger draw chasing the title than as the champion holding it. This is why his title reigns were shorter in his prime.

3. It is true that the Rock wasnt as protected as Austin was, but he didnt lose clean to a whole bunch of mid carders either. Rock was protected enough to lose CLEAN only to legit main event players. The Rock is probably one of the few unselfish stars in the industry though, I cant deny that.

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Old 08-07-2012, 03:14 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Default Re: Questions about The Rock's career.

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Originally Posted by WWCturbo View Post
HHH is jelly of everyone who's more over than him.
Well he is no Bret hart when it comes to being bitter and jealousy.
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Old 08-07-2012, 03:37 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Default Re: Questions about The Rock's career.

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Originally Posted by Hazaq View Post
Well he is no Bret hart when it comes to being bitter and jealousy.
Bret Hart's the man who put the GOAT Stone Cold Steve Austin over. HHH put over who?
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Old 08-07-2012, 04:03 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Default Re: Questions about The Rock's career.

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Originally Posted by WWCturbo View Post
Bret Hart's the man who put the GOAT Stone Cold Steve Austin over. HHH put over who?
There are only 4 people HHH has perhaps really put over.

1) Chris Benoit
2) John Cena
3) Randy Orton
4) Katie Vick
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Old 08-07-2012, 04:25 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Default Re: Questions about The Rock's career.

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Originally Posted by Hazaq View Post

There was no "friction" in their relationship but observer once reported Rock refused to work with Booker T in 02, because he was heading into a mania program with HHH. Triple H has always named Rock and Shawn as his two favorite opponents to work with.
I believe Rocky was supposed to face Booker T on RAW in early 2003 during his Hollywood heel gimmick. He was going to put Booker over because he wanted to help build Booker on the way to Wrestlemania. He then objected because they decided that Triple H was going to win at Wrestlemania when pretty much everyone thought Booker should win, so Rock thought it was a waste of a put-over if Triple H was going to ultimately win again.

I think perhaps he was remembering back to how he worked hard to make Jericho credible in late 2001/early 2002 only for Triple H to come back and ruin it all.
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Old 08-07-2012, 04:49 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Default Re: Questions about The Rock's career.

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Originally Posted by RickeyP View Post
There are only 4 people HHH has perhaps really put over.

1) Chris Benoit
2) John Cena
3) Randy Orton
4) Katie Vick
Batista beat him clean, 3 times in a row in 2005.
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Old 08-07-2012, 05:00 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Default Re: Questions about The Rock's career

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Originally Posted by ninealevyn View Post
I have three major questions about him.

1) I don't think I've seen a top guy change between heel and face so many times. We talk about how much of gamble it would be to turn Cena, but The Rock seemed to do it many times in his prime.

2) Why did he always have short reigns. I don't think a top guy has been so unprotected. He got his ass kicked many of times.

3) He's beaten Hogan, Austin and Cena but what's his real record against top guys? I know he lost convincingly to both Brock and Goldberg.
1. When The Rock had become a main event star he only turned heel once which was once the fans had began to turn on him in 2002 which is what led to Hollywood Rock. The lead up to his heel turn at Survivor Series in 1998 is basically what made him a main event star so i wouldn't really say that was a top guy heel turn as such. Also you have to remember that WWE had Stone Cold Steve Austin as the top babyface at that time and when The Rock turned heel in 2002 they had the biggest amount of talent the roster had ever seen due to signing ex WCW and ECW wrestlers so it wasn't anywhere near the gamble turning John Cena would be.

2. The Rock never needed to be WWE champion and was just as over by being involved in feuds with Rikishi, The Big Show and Booker T as he was when feuding with Stone Cold Steve Austin, Triple H and Kurt Angle. Also it is simple booking 101 that you have a heel champion and a babyface chasing as it is the best drawing storyline in wrestling which worked for Sting in 1990, Bret Hart in 1994, Shawn Michaels in 1996, Sting in 1997, Stone Cold Steve Austin and Goldberg in 1998, The Rock in 2000, John Cena and Batista in 2005 and Jeff Hardy in 2009. When The Rock was chasing Triple H from early 2000 through to Backlash was one of the greatest chases of all time and drew HUGE and outside of 2001 it was the same for Stone Cold Steve Austin as he never had reigns that lasted too long.

3. It's not great really seeing as he only ever beat Stone Cold Steve Austin at Survivor Series in 2001 and WrestleMania 19, shared as many wins as losses with Triple H, lost more to The Undertaker than he won i believe and shared about as many wins over Kurt Angle as losses. Obviously he has a perfect record against Hulk Hogan in one on one matches although i believe Hulk Hogan pinned him in a handicap match on Raw and he had a good record against Chris Benoit but i believe he shared about as many wins as losses with Chris Jericho and may even have a losing record against him especially on PPV.
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Old 08-07-2012, 05:13 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Default Re: Questions about The Rock's career.

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Originally Posted by Hazaq View Post
How did Triple H bury Jericho? Chris Jericho's first main event push was against HHH in 2000, their feud ended with a classic LMS match that put over Jericho big time.

Year 2002 was all messed up. The original plan for WM 18 was Austin-HHH, Austin was set to become first undisputed champion at vengeance by pinning chris jericho and he was suppose to drop the title to Triple H on his return match at mania 18. But Austin, as always, refused to lose/drop the title to HHH. So the plans were changed and they went with Chris jericho all the way to mania. About the poor build to their feud, HHH has himself said that he was disappointed with how the feud went down.
That wasn't because of HHH though, that was because of Jericho and Steph, outside of The Rock, no one did more than Steph to get Jericho over in the WWF. People may complain about her these days but she did some good stuff back in the Attitude era. Who got the victory? HHH. Who did the work to get Jericho into the place where that match was possible? Stephanie McMahon.

As for the rest of HHH burying Jericho. He tried to bury Jericho when Y2J first entered the WWF, constantly politicking against him backstage and then in their WM programme, he rejected practically every suggestion Jericho had, making Jericho look absolutely weak and contributing to the Steph angle that made Jericho look like nothing more than Steph's bitch. On the flip side HHH made himself look brilliant in everything they did and refused Jericho any upper hand. In his book Jericho seems pretty annoyed about the whole thing and is critical of it.

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Losing at Wrestlemania and on a b-show ppv is not the same thing. Rock's record against austin is infact poor.
If you consider the conclusion to the Invasion angle 'A B-Show PPV' then that's up to you but it was easily the 2nd most important PPV of that year after obviously Wrestlemania, much more important than SummerSlam or the Rumble that year. It's not WM but it was still big.

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No. Win/loss is pretty even between them.. I'm sure they fought at the house shows in '99 and 2000 a million times, but off the top of my head:

IYH 13 - Rock beat Hunter for IC Title (granted, they were both under their old gimmicks, but a win's a win)
Fully Loaded '98 - Draw in a 2/3 Falls match
Summerslam '98 - Hunter beat Rock in a Ladder match for the IC Title
Raw in January '99 - Rock beat Hunter in an I Quit match for the WWF Title
Over The Edge '99 - Rock beat Hunter by DQ
Raw in May '99 - Rock beat Hunter in a cage match
Fully Loaded '99 - Hunter beat Rock for #1 contendership
Unforgiven '99 - Hunter pinned Rock in the 6-man Challenge
Rebellion '99 - Hunter beat Rock in a cage match
WrestleMania 16 - Hunter beat Rock
Backlash '00 - Rock beat Hunter
Judgment Day '00 - Hunter beat Rock
KOTR '00 - Rock won Hunter's WWF Title (though he pinned Vince)
Summerslam '00 - Rock pinned Hunter in a triple threat match

Again, those are just the major ones off the top of my head. By no means was the HHH/Rock feud one-sided for either man. HHH, being the super over heel hardly won clean against the super over babyface Rock at the time.
If we look at them from when Hunter was given his push (Fully Loaded '99 onwards) it's 5-3 Hunter and his title reigns were much longer than The Rocks. Admittedly the match up is a bit closer than I remember but HHH was still in the ascendency in that feud but that's what did great business at the time, so it's understandable. I certainly loved watching The Rock chasing the title at the time and Backlash 2000's ending is one of the best of the Attitude Era.

Quote:
And none of those were clean. Rock did put him over even in defeat but if he really wanted to make Chris jericho legit, he probably should have lost clean more. I think Rock pinned jericho clean in a smackdown match in 02. Again, HHH did not bury jericho, learn the meaning of the term first.
If you read Jericho's book then you'd see that Jericho had no problem losing unclean if it was done correctly, he just disliked when it was done all the time. He loved the Royal Rumble match, thought it was brilliant and he cheated about three times in that match to get the unclean win. It doesn't matter whether the wins were clean or not, Jericho was playing the cowardly heel and the matches were booked to reflect that. Here's an exact quote from his book:

Quote:
The next PPV was the Royal Rumble, where I was booked to face Rocky in the main event for the title. Rock was my favorite opponent and I could finally show off why I was worthy of being World Champion. The idea was for me to retain the title by beating him with a screwjob, which usually meant a low blow, outside interference, or the use of a foreign object. I decided that I’d get as much heat out of it as I could and use all three. So I had the Unamericans (Christian, Lance Storm, and Test) run down to cause a distraction. With the ref preoccupied, I nutshotted Rock, bashed his head into an exposed turnbuckle, and pinned him with both feet on the ropes. The crowd in Atlanta was furious and booed me like millionaires at an Obama rally. The victory gave me a major credibility boost and was the highlight of my run as the Undisputed Champion.
When Jericho wanted to continue his heel run by amping it up a bit by sleeping with Steph, HHH rejected that and instead we ended up with Jericho as Steph's bitch, which totally shot through any credible he had made as a win at all costs cheating heel. He just became a whiny cheat that could only retain via cheating, rather than a cheat who you love to hate. That was HHH's fault, nearly half a year of developing that character was destroyed because HHH didn't want himself to look weak. Jericho's exact quote:
Quote:

the problem was I was pussywhipped without the pussy. Now I was just whipped—which was apropos, because I became Stephanie’s personal Kunta Kinte. She would send me out for groceries, make me sweep the floor, carry her bags, whatever. I wasn’t the World Champion anymore so much as Stephanie McMahon’s lackey— a fact that was made evident in the WrestleMania matchup graphic. It said: “HHH vs Chris Jericho w/Stephanie McMahon,” with me in the background behind her shoulder.

Shawn Michaels, Ric Flair, and Bret Hart had been tremendous heel champions who got red-hot heat due to their exploits in the ring and the dirty tactics they used against their opponents. I was an average heel champion who got lukewarm heat due to my exploits of stealing Grimace costumes, cleaning up shit, and running over dogs in the parking lot. With the exception of my Royal Rumble match with The Rock, my run as the first Undisputed Champion had been a bust.
A couple chapters later:
Quote:

In the week leading up to WrestleMania, OTR had a WWE Superstar as the sole guest each night for the entire thirty minutes. First up was HHH. I was watching the interview, and when host Michael Landsberg asked him what he thought of his opponent for Mania, I couldn’t believe his response. “Jericho can be as good as he wants to be but he’s missing something. I don’t know what that something is, but it’s keeping him from being what he could be.” He was basically telling everybody that I wasn’t living up to my potential. The first rule I learned about interviews from Bulldog Bob Brown in Calgary was you always put over your opponent. That way if you win, you’ve really beat somebody. It didn’t matter if he thought I was missing something, I was the Undisputed World Champion! I felt that it wasn’t the best way to sell the huge match coming up in only a few days, and it annoyed me.
Sounds like burying to me, part of it was Vince not having faith but HHH contributed a lot as well and it's documented that he never thought much of Jericho. If you want to see how much that did bury Jericho, he didn't get a rematch at Backlash...hell he wasn't even on the card! He got a Hell in the Cell match at the next PPV which he obviously lost and then by King of the Ring he was losing to RVD in the Semis...what was the first Undisputed Champion even doing in the Semis of KOTR?

The Rock put over Jericho massively. HHH buried his chances of remaining at upper card level, if Jericho had been given just one victory over HHH then it would have been enough. Lose at WM, win at Backlash, then lose in the Hell in a Cell match. Instead he got an awful WM build and lost the Hell in a Cell match and was then cast back into mid card. Basically The Rock's entire post Booker T 2001 had been wasted.

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Old 08-07-2012, 07:49 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Default Re: Questions about The Rock's career

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Originally Posted by ninealevyn View Post
Great answers guys, I'm on my phone, but once I get on the computer I'll rep you guys.

Anyone remember how he storyline turned heel and/or face?


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Rock's turns were gradual. They used Foley to push his first face turn I believe. Ingenious booking of two extremely over wrestlers. Now we don't even have one wrestler of that calibre, nevermind the booking skills.
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