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Old 07-12-2012, 06:19 PM   #41 (permalink)
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Default Re: The most complete wrestler ever..

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Originally Posted by Segunda Caida View Post
Meh, Angle was never a student of the game. He's a tremendous amateur wrestler and one of the most legitimate athletes in the history of the industry, but being a tremendous WRESTLER doesn't make you a tremendous WORKER by default. Its why John Cena is a very good (sometimes excellent) worker despite being sub-par at best in terms of pure wrestling ability.

Angle isn't like a Finlay, a Terry Funk, a William Regal, an Arn Anderson etc. He didn't grow up being told the basics of the business, how to structure a match, how to plan a match to put over a young guy but not at his own expense, how and when to sell, how to convey fear/anger/desperation/pain through his facial expressions, how to time a move to get the best reaction from the fans etc. Guys like Funk etc grew up working crowds up and down the country and internationally, they know how to put over a young guy, how to heel it up and keep a crowd invested and most importantly, they know how to do all of this whilst wrestling a simple and basic style where the emphasis is on the story and substance behind the moves, each move/sequence has meaning behind it and is used to put over the match rather than be there for the sake of an impressive looking spot.

As Angle has slowly become a veteran in the business instead of the promising rookie he was in 2000/2001 his matches over time have slowly worsened, as the rookie he could be led to excellent matches by Austin and Undertaker, guys who knew how to create substance and structure to their matches but crucially knew how to work a match that highlighted all of Angle's strengths whilst hiding his limitations.

Look, Angle is a polarising force, you either love the sprint epics where its more about the counters and the nearfalls than character work, selling, build, structure or you find him largely intolerable but sometimes able to show promise. For example he was incredible against Austin at Summerslam 2001, and his matches v Taker (Smackdown 2003 and NWO 2006) are two of the best matches WWE put on this past decade. The man clearly has talent for the business, he's just never really had that pro wrestling brain where he can work smarter/slower matches and save his body whilst still putting his opponent over and connect with a crowd. Because of this his body has broken down because he really only knows one way to wrestle, and that's the sprint style featuring big transitions, counters, nearfalls and kickouts because ever since The 2003 Royal Rumble opposite Benoit he's become convinced that's the only way to pop a crowd.

There are numerous issues where his lack of psychology is evident, the fact a lot of his matches very rarely have a build/structure to them, there's a lot of moves/transitions but there's no clear build to big spots: e.g in your average Flair title defence, he'd spent the vast majority of the beginning of the match getting outwrestled, losing each lock-up/chain wrestling sequence, would bump big for every bit of his opponent's offence and would visibly sell his frustration at being outwrestled. All this would then lead to him finally gaining control, whether it was by a low blow/rake to the eyes, a big bump by his opponent or simply through Flair brilliance: the point was all the damage he took in the early spell of the match built to that one moment where he would take over and then his opponent would be the one to sell. With Angle you very rarely get that, instead you usually get some default matwork/trading of holds, before they break away into the punches/stomps/suplexes/rest hold portion of the match. With a smarter worker, usually say Regal if he was to do matwork for 3-5 minutes at the start of a match, he'd make it mean something. Usually he'd be outwrestled or constantly be unable to keep control, indeed one of his famous spots at house shows is to run almost comedy esque spots where his opponent will time and time again counter every move Regal tries and dump him on his ass. It gets the crowd involved, but crucially it adds a story to the match and serves as reason for Regal to move away from matwork and try a new method to gain control: ergo the sequences whilst crowd pleasing and visually cool mean something. They don't just suddenly decide "hey, screw the matwork, now we're gonna punch and trade suplex counters" etc.

Now this doesn't mean Angle is a bad worker, it just means me personally I prefer the Flair/Regal example, where the spots mean something in the larger context of the match and aren't just there to start the match. They tie into and develop the characters within the match and serve a larger purpose, and as I've gotten older workers who can do this on a regular basis are the guys I tend to find on the whole better. Again I'm by no means right when I say Finlay >>>>>>>> Angle, because you could easily reply that Finlay's style is slow and plodding, and Angle's is more dynamic and gets a crowd more invested. You'd have a valid argument and a lot of people would be inclined to agree with you.

So aye, a whole lot of rambling there, but essentially the problem a lot of people have with Angle is that he's a guy who can do the epic sprints and fast paced wrestling match, but there exist a lot of fans who prefer a story/character dynamic etc to dominate a wrestling match, and Angle's style whilst retaining its fans will annoy/infuriate those looking for more meaning and depth to the sequences. It doesn't make either party right in their opinion as to whether he's excellent or mediocre, its just evidence that different stylistic preferences will always divide.
Great read man, thanks a lot.
Love when people are objective and try to be fair.
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Old 07-12-2012, 08:10 PM   #42 (permalink)
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Default Re: The most complete wrestler ever..

I'd plump for Curt Hennig, followed closely by Ric Flair.

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Old 07-12-2012, 09:15 PM   #43 (permalink)
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Default Re: The most complete wrestler ever..

Mic Skills - The Rock
Promos - CM Punk
In-ring ability - Bret Hart
Ring psychology - The Undertaker
Personality - Sting
Looks - Rick Rude
Technical Skill - Kurt Angle
Charisma - Stone Cold Steve Austin
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Old 07-12-2012, 09:29 PM   #44 (permalink)
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Default Re: The most complete wrestler ever..

The Rock is the greatest total package of all time, in every aspect of the wrestling industry and beyond. After that, Flair, Austin, Angle, Savage, HBK, Booker etc.

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Old 07-12-2012, 09:31 PM   #45 (permalink)
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Default Re: The most complete wrestler ever..

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Originally Posted by #Kamerillion View Post
Mic Skills - The Rock
Promos - CM Punk
In-ring ability - Bret Hart
Ring psychology - The Undertaker
Personality - Sting
Looks - Rick Rude
Technical Skill - Kurt Angle
Charisma - Stone Cold Steve Austin
Umm, complete wrestler means a wrestler encompassing all of those characteristics.

Doesn't mean to name each characteristic and list a wrestler for it.

And isn't personality the same as charisma and in ring ability the same as technical skill and mic skills the same as promos?

What are you, like 12?
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Old 07-13-2012, 12:24 AM   #46 (permalink)
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Default Re: The most complete wrestler ever..

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Originally Posted by Trouble Trouble View Post
Umm, complete wrestler means a wrestler encompassing all of those characteristics.

Doesn't mean to name each characteristic and list a wrestler for it.

And isn't personality the same as charisma and in ring ability the same as technical skill and mic skills the same as promos?

What are you, like 12?
Well, the way it was put forward was this:

Personality is the overall character like say the undertaker in his debut days where he walked like a zombie, had the look, height, physique and wardrobe included. Charisma, he got much later, is like a X-Factor which gets the crowd and people up. Trips had a great personality as the snob rich blue blood but Charisma came in after he broke into the attitude era with HBK and peaked when he re-started DX.

Similarly, in-ring ability refers to being able to work in sync with the opponent while technical skills is merely that, ability to do a perfect suplex or frankensteiner. Escaping from Ankle Lock/cross face in Angle Vs Benoit matches would be a perfect demonstration of both, they exhibited in ring ability by countering and playing along with their opponent and technical skills in using their own maneuvers perfectly and aesthetically.

Mic Skills here is referred in the similar vein as the individual's ability to wield a mic and keep the crowd up like Eddie did to explain his actions of destroying Rey Mysterio in his heel turn while Promo is the part where he made a story out of it. A lot of them can use a mic, talk and get the crowd engaged but to make a promo out of it, make it a story which is engaging, not everyone can.

Of course, all this is how I see it and open to correct myself if I am wrong.
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Old 07-13-2012, 12:25 AM   #47 (permalink)
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Default Re: The most complete wrestler ever..

Angle, with Eddie and Jericho VERY close.
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Old 07-13-2012, 12:31 AM   #48 (permalink)
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Default Re: The most complete wrestler ever..

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Originally Posted by theidealstranger View Post
Well, the way it was put forward was this:

Personality is the overall character like say the undertaker in his debut days where he walked like a zombie, had the look, height, physique and wardrobe included. Charisma, he got much later, is like a X-Factor which gets the crowd and people up. Trips had a great personality as the snob rich blue blood but Charisma came in after he broke into the attitude era with HBK and peaked when he re-started DX.

Similarly, in-ring ability refers to being able to work in sync with the opponent while technical skills is merely that, ability to do a perfect suplex or frankensteiner. Escaping from Ankle Lock/cross face in Angle Vs Benoit matches would be a perfect demonstration of both, they exhibited in ring ability by countering and playing along with their opponent and technical skills in using their own maneuvers perfectly and aesthetically.

Mic Skills here is referred in the similar vein as the individual's ability to wield a mic and keep the crowd up like Eddie did to explain his actions of destroying Rey Mysterio in his heel turn while Promo is the part where he made a story out of it. A lot of them can use a mic, talk and get the crowd engaged but to make a promo out of it, make it a story which is engaging, not everyone can.

Of course, all this is how I see it and open to correct myself if I am wrong.
Still doesn't change the fact that the title is "most complete wrestler ever" but the guy listed several wrestlers and what they were best at.

And what does anything you just said have to do with the most complete wrestler? You're naming wrestlers in categories, how does that mean they are complete?
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Old 07-13-2012, 12:34 AM   #49 (permalink)
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Default Re: The most complete wrestler ever..

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Originally Posted by Segunda Caida View Post
Terry Funk, narrowly ahead of Flair. Lawler would ideally have been my #1 contender but the technical skill criteria wouldn't favour him. I don't think its terribly important since he managed to have enough great matches in spite of not being a great technician/pure wrestler, but since you specified it I'll go for Funk. Everyone of those criteria you mentioned he has in abundance, not many gaijins have managed to emotionally connect with a Japanese crowd to the point where they're more beloved and over than 90% of the native wrestlers, but Terry Funk is one of those people who managed to succeed where others failed. The smartest professional wrestler IMO.

For wrestlers in recent times, William Regal and Eddie Guerrero would be the standout candidates, and then going further back the likes of Austin, Arn Anderson, Tully Blanchard and Dick Murdoch would be right up there. Foley and Jake Roberts excel in a few of the specified criteria but would be let down by the technique and look criteria, particularly Foley since you could argue Jake's look was perfect for the character he largely portrayed throughout his career.

I'll also throw out Dutch Mantell as someone who will likely receive next to no nominations, but who really is an under-appreciated talent. His promo ability is incredible when you factor in his work during the Lawler feud of March 1982, specifically the studio match where he calls out Lawler for a now or never fight to end the feud with some stellar mic work to hype the match and then mid-match he bails to the floor and cuts an all time great promo asking Lawler to put aside the feud and go after the Midnight Express. Anyone with a brain can see Mantell sucker-punching Lawler coming a mile away, but between his incredible delivery as well as his voice and tone you get so caught up in each and every word coming out of his mouth that everything else around him doesn't get your full attention and consequently the inevitable sucker punch everyone expected still manages to retain that shock reaction because it literally comes out of nowhere.


EDIT: I can understand the Savage argument, even though I think Funk is far better at everyone of those aspects than Savage, aside from maybe charisma even if I think Funk is incredibly charismatic but in a more succinct and subtle way than Savage as 'The Macho Man'. I don't really get the Michaels/Rock shout-outs, both stand out in certain areas but are let down by other parts of the criteria in the OP, Austin would definitely be above either of those two if we're considering Attitude Era greats.
I wouldn't have made this much effort in a post but I agree. Otherwise I probably would have said Savage or Flair.
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Old 07-13-2012, 12:52 AM   #50 (permalink)
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Default Re: The most complete wrestler ever..

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Still doesn't change the fact that the title is "most complete wrestler ever" but the guy listed several wrestlers and what they were best at.

And what does anything you just said have to do with the most complete wrestler? You're naming wrestlers in categories, how does that mean they are complete?
There is some misunderstanding here I guess, I answered your question for the separation of Mic Skills from Promos, In Ring from Technical and Personality from Charisma; not the question of naming individual wrestlers for each of the category. The question was to name a wrestler good in all those, not one wrestler per skill which you and most others have nailed perfectly.
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