Bret is champion with him leaving after the Survivor Series match and he refuses to lose to Shawn in his hometown.
You are scared from another Medusa/Alundra Blayze situation and this time it will be a lot bigger.
If you even trusted Bret that he will not show up with the title there but you know that Bischoff can announce Bret signing as the WWE Champion signing to WCW.
You are the owner of a huge company against a rival/enemy that can do anything to destroy you.
What would you do yourself, would you screw Bret or you have another solution to it?
Re: If you were in the position of Vince McMahon,what would you do in the Bret Hart leaving as champion situation?
am I wrong to think bret shouldve just agreed to drop the title? the guy was leaving so just do what they need to get out, at the end of the day it was his insistence on not dropping the title at SS that led to the screwjob, just get the job done, get on with your life is the way i see it, he was being awkward when he didnt need to be, its wrestling, its not a real championship.
dont think vince was all that wrong tbh, if it had backfired then vince wouldve been picking up the pieces.
Re: If you were in the position of Vince McMahon,what would you do in the Bret Hart leaving as champion situation?
I would do the exact same thing that Vince did and screw Bret if he refused to lose to Shawn.
Regardless of Bret's personal animosity towards Shawn, business is business and he should have put Shawn over on the way out.
Survivor Series 1997 was advertised to be a World Title match with Bret as champion vs Shawn as challenger and should have stayed that way.
I have read some Bret defenders (or critics of Vince for the way he handled the Bret situation) suggesting that Vince should have added another competitor (like Stone Cold or Shamrock) in the Survivor Series match and have Bret drop it to that third guy instead. However I dont like false advertising or the shenanigans of adding in an extra competitor in the match especially if there is no compelling storyline to do so part way through the pay-per-view.
Another thing I read was the suggestion that Bret could have relinquished the belt the following night on RAW but again, Vince was paranoid about Bischoff convincing Bret to no-show RAW and appear on WCW instead with the belt. Plus Bret should have dropped the belt properly to elevate the existing WWE competitors instead of relinquishing it and basically saying no one could beat him for it for the belt on his way out.
Re: If you were in the position of Vince McMahon,what would you do in the Bret Hart leaving as champion situation?
Bret was in the wrong here. Vince had spent years allowing him to be very picky when it came to protecting his character in that ring. Which was smart on the part of both parties, but when you're on your way out the door and trying to leave on good terms, which it appeared Bret was, you have got to throw that out the window and lose on your way out.
Would Bret have done as he said he would and relinquished the belt the next night? Probably, but he shouldn't have put Vince in the position to have to worry about that. Especially with the way the business was at that time.
I feel that Vince really did try here to do right by Bret and find a reasonable compromise, but Bret was thinking only in one absolute and wouldn't budge. He left Vince no choice really. I am a fan of Bret but have never been able to defend him on this one.
Bret was in the wrong here. Vince had spent years allowing him to be very picky when it came to protecting his character in that ring. Which was smart on the part of both parties, but when you're on your way out the door and trying to leave on good terms, which it appeared Bret was, you have got to throw that out the window and lose on your way out.
Would Bret have done as he said he would and relinquished the belt the next night? Probably, but he shouldn't have put Vince in the position to have to worry about that. Especially with the way the business was at that time.
I feel that Vince really did try here to do right by Bret and find a reasonable compromise, but Bret was thinking only in one absolute and wouldn't budge. He left Vince no choice really. I am a fan of Bret but have never been able to defend him on this one.
Re: If you were in the position of Vince McMahon,what would you do in the Bret Hart leaving as champion situation?
It had to be Shawn because Shawn was the top heel in the company at that time. They wanted Austin to win the title against the top heel at the following year's WM. Losing it to someone else, only for Shawn to beat that guy, only for Austin to then beat Shawn at WM probably wasn't something they were interested in. I'm guessing they wanted the person who Austin beat to be as strong as possible going into that WM match and passing the belt around another extra time in that time period wouldn't have been the same in WWF's view, IMO.
Re: If you were in the position of Vince McMahon,what would you do in the Bret Hart leaving as champion situation?
It's not like Bret didn't want to drop the belt at all, just not on that night. He still had some time left on his contract and I don't believe Bret had such ill will towards the company that he'd show up on Nitro with the WWF Title. The man was a traditionalist and despite his issues with HBK, Bret seemed like he was Vince's guy.
With that being said, go with the DQ finish at SSeries as the match ends in chaos with DX disrespecting Canada ("injuring" Bret in the process) and the Hart Family fighting them off. This allows Bret to lose to Shawn on RAW or the next PPV (whichever his contract allows) under the guise that he was hurt. Hell, make it a Ladder Match (Shawn's signature match) so The Hitman looks strong in defeat as he exits the company.
Re: If you were in the position of Vince McMahon,what would you do in the Bret Hart leaving as champion situation?
If it was a work, it was a good one. Kudo's to all involved if it was a work.
If it was not a work - then shame on Brett.
You are talking about a guy that literally grew up in the business. A guy that had been exposed to its inner workings from childhood. Brett, of all people, should have known what he wanted wasn't how things work.
First, I would get Shawn to my office, and ask him point blank in front of Bret, "Did you tell him that you will never job to him?" (cause this is the main reason why Bret refused to lose to Shawn). If the answer was anything other than, "No, I never said that to him", I would setup a number 1 contender's match a week before the PPV where Shawn would go against Taker or Shamrock or Owen where Shawn would lose (this would also test the not jobbing theory). The winner would then go against Bret at the PPV where Bret would lose the title. Now if Bret disagreed to lose the title to anybody, then that changes things and would lead to...
Vince stripping Bret of the title for refusing to do business and an elimination match would occur in Survivor Series to crown the new champion; where Shawn would emerge as the winner.
That's still not "reasonable." Bret is a professional and a man. Bitter as he may be about what HBK said, and yes I believe he said that, it's not like the two would ever see each other again until Bret's WCW contract was up. Shut up, be a man, and drop the title.
Bret had put Shawn over in a major way at Wrestlemania. Shawn never put Bret over (and faked injuries or lost his smile and walked away). The straw that broke the camel's back was when HBK point blank told him that he will never put him over, and that really hurt Bret (combine that with the fact that he perceived that Vince was supporting that and letting Shawn get away with it).
Professionalism is expected out of Bret for dropping the title? What about Shawn? Is it professional to say to your colleague that he will never do business with him where he would job?
He took a stand against an unprofessional prick, and lost because the boss chose the prick over him. The only part that I fault Bret with is that he chose to come and perform when he already fulfilled his contracted appearances. He should have let his lawyers talk to Vince instead of doing it himself.
First, I would get Shawn to my office, and ask him point blank in front of Bret, "Did you tell him that you will never job to him?" (cause this is the main reason why Bret refused to lose to Shawn). If the answer was anything other than, "No, I never said that to him", I would setup a number 1 contender's match a week before the PPV where Shawn would go against Taker or Shamrock or Owen where Shawn would lose (this would also test the not jobbing theory). The winner would then go against Bret at the PPV where Bret would lose the title. Now if Bret disagreed to lose the title to anybody, then that changes things and would lead to...
Vince stripping Bret of the title for refusing to do business and an elimination match would occur in Survivor Series to crown the new champion; where Shawn would emerge as the winner.
I dont think it's that black and white.
Bret had put Shawn over in a major way at Wrestlemania. Shawn never put Bret over (and faked injuries or lost his smile and walked away). The straw that broke the camel's back was when HBK point blank told him that he will never put him over, and that really hurt Bret (combine that with the fact that he perceived that Vince was supporting that and letting Shawn get away with it).
Professionalism is expected out of Bret for dropping the title? What about Shawn? Is it professional to say to your colleague that he will never do business with him where he would job?
He took a stand against an unprofessional prick, and lost because the boss chose the prick over him. The only part that I fault Bret with is that he chose to come and perform when he already fulfilled his contracted appearances. He should have let his lawyers talk to Vince instead of doing it himself.
Re: If you were in the position of Vince McMahon,what would you do in the Bret Hart leaving as champion situation?
If I was Vince I'd pay respects to a man that was carrying my company for the last few years. I'd book Bret to lose the title in his last match in his hometown against his brother Owen Hart.
Re: If you were in the position of Vince McMahon,what would you do in the Bret Hart leaving as champion situation?
Since Austin was on his way of becoming their guy, I would make him drop it to either Taker or Shamrock before Survivor Series, and then Michaels can have his big title win at the PPV event.
I don't know what was so complicated about the situation. :Shrug?...other than Vince's fucked up ego maniacal personality.
It's one of two things:
1. Vince wanting to make an example out of Bret for leaving him.
2. The whole thing was a work.
...Other wise why would Vince McMahon take such risk knowing that Bret have creative control.
Since Austin was on his way of becoming their guy, I would make him drop it to either Taker or Shamrock before Survivor Series, and then Michaels can have his big title win at the PPV event.
- Taker or Shamrock was not as hot as HBK at the time. (which TBF, HBK managed to get as hot as he was because of his own participation in booking meetings)
- When news broke out that Bret already signed with WCW (approx. 7 days or so before Survivor Series), they already booked and advertised Bret-HBK as the main event of Survivor Series for quite some time. To insert anybody else into the mix during the PPV when there is no compelling storyline to do so is either false advertising or dumbass booking, take your pick
Re: If you were in the position of Vince McMahon,what would you do in the Bret Hart leaving as champion situation?
According to Jim Cornette, they did propose the idea of Bret dropping it to a third person in the match (not HBK) but Bret said he didn't want to lose the title in Canada.
So Vince really had no choice but to screw Bret in my opinion. Yeah, it was Vince's fault that it got that far, but he really had no choice at that point.
According to Jim Cornette, they did propose the idea of Bret dropping it to a third person in the match (not HBK) but Bret said he didn't want to lose the title in Canada.
I strongly dislike Bret but I believe Bret when he said he only objected to losing to HBK in Canada. He would have been fine with losing in Canada to Stone Cold, for instance. (but probably Vince was adamant about crowning Stone Cold at WrestleMania and he didn't want anybody else other than HBK as World Champion at that point...Stone Cold had his own angle to attend to anyway)
Which at the end of the day is not the professional way to do things anyway, it doesn't matter what Bret thinks. He should do what his boss tells him to do.
Re: If you were in the position of Vince McMahon,what would you do in the Bret Hart leaving as champion situation?
I know this will sound crazy but here me out. I would, you know, treat him like an adult. I would talk to Bret and work something out. Probably talk to Undertaker and have him beat Shawn for the title shot then have him beat Bret for the title and in a month or two lose it to Shawn.
Seriously there were SO many ways Vince could have dealt with this it leads me to think the MSJ was all an amazing work. It is not like Bret's contract was coming to an end and Vince was thinking he was going to resign and at the 11th hour Bret announced he was leaving for WCW. Vince knew months in advance. Hell he had to let Bret out of his contract to let him go. So there were many ways to handle this. Heck tell Bret you are worried about a Medusa situation and have him physically hand over the belt to WWE personal after every match when he got to the back.
I know this will sound crazy but here me out. I would, you know, treat him like an adult. I would talk to Bret and work something out. Probably talk to Undertaker and have him beat Shawn for the title shot then have him beat Bret for the title and in a month or two lose it to Shawn.
Seriously there were SO many ways Vince could have dealt with this it leads me to think the MSJ was all an amazing work. It is not like Bret's contract was coming to an end and Vince was thinking he was going to resign and at the 11th hour Bret announced he was leaving for WCW. Vince knew months in advance. Hell he had to let Bret out of his contract to let him go. So there were many ways to handle this. Heck tell Bret you are worried about a Medusa situation and have him physically hand over the belt to WWE personal after every match when he got to the back.
Re: If you were in the position of Vince McMahon,what would you do in the Bret Hart leaving as champion situation?
Exactly what Vince did. He had every right to screw over Bret that night. Bret should've just did the job and head over to WCW, then there's wouldn't of been a problem. Vince is not going to risk Bret leaving with his title and show up in WCW with it. Look what happened with Madusa. Vince did what he had to do.
Exactly what Vince did. He had every right to screw over Bret that night. Bret should've just did the job and head over to WCW, then there's wouldn't of been a problem. Vince is not going to risk Bret leaving with his title and show up in WCW with it. Look what happened with Madusa. Vince did what he had to do.
Re: If you were in the position of Vince McMahon,what would you do in the Bret Hart leaving as champion situation?
I would've made it a triple threat with someone respected like Taker, and had him win it. Bret wouldn't have a problem dropping it to Taker and Shawn wouldn't get his ego stroked.
I would've made it a triple threat with someone respected like Taker, and had him win it. Bret wouldn't have a problem dropping it to Taker and Shawn wouldn't get his ego stroked.
Re: If you were in the position of Vince McMahon,what would you do in the Bret Hart leaving as champion situation?
It was the end of September when Vince told Bret he couldn't pay him what he'd promised and told Bret to negotiate with WCW. Then on October 24th, Vince told Bret he could now afford to pay him what he wanted. So Bret said great as he wanted to stay, but was keeping his options open until he heard back from Bischoff.
Then on October 31st, Bret received all the details about his WCW contract and phoned Vince. He wanted to know what creative direction was planned if he stayed. Bret wasn't happy with what Vince said and signed the contract with WCW.
Then the first proper conversation happened regarding how to drop the belt.
Re: If you were in the position of Vince McMahon,what would you do in the Bret Hart leaving as champion situation?
DX was pretty hot in late '97. At one point, the night after HIAC '97, HBK (and DX) were so looked down upon by the crowd that they actually gave Bret somewhat of a cheer, in his dual promo with Shawn and Bret said "Please, spare me your cheers." If you're going to get a guy & group a face reaction after he and they had just spent the last several months running down the American fans, you're doing something right as a heel group..
Also, a lot of the things the late '97 DX was doing at the time were things that were brand new to the audience; like in the very same night as I mentioned above, airing the 'Curtain Call' on the titantron. Probably something that the majority of the audience at that time had no idea what that was or what it meant. It was all pretty cutting-edge stuff for the time. And yeah, there were also times where the fans were probably just entertained by the new shit they were seeing, so they didn't feel like booing them, which is perfectly understandable.
Re: If you were in the position of Vince McMahon,what would you do in the Bret Hart leaving as champion situation?
I find it very interesting at how some of the people commented on this thread.
I have been on these forums on and off for almost 2 years, and there are some members who are very knowledgeable about the product or booking in general.
In the context of where they were at the time, I can say one thing with great confidence, most members on this forum would have never allowed the situation to get as bad as Vince did, and would have removed the belt off of Bret before he was freed to negotiate with WCW, and this Montreal Screwjob crap would have been averted.
I think its revisionist history that WWE puts out that says that Montreal Screwjob turned up WWE's fortunes. I think its BS. Austin was going to be white hot (he was popular since KOR), and the greatest draw of all time whether or not Shawn was champion or McMahon becoming the evil boss character. Some how some way, Austin would have been champion and the WWE would still be off to the races and beat WCW.
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