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How bothered are you about the Hall Of Fame in all honesty for your favourite talents?

3K views 30 replies 17 participants last post by  Simpsons Modern Life 
#1 ·


Please hear me out on this one before adding your response, as I know most people here do read and reply properly as opposed to the general section where a lot don't even read and just reply within seconds completely missing the point of conversation sometimes. However I wanted to know what you guys thought about your favourite talents not being recognised in the WWE's Hall Of Fame or not.

I understand completely how the WWE's Hall Of Fame is often a marketing thing for Vince, it doesn't have an official hall. The people who go in are often due to certain things with Vince as opposed to what they should be inducted for, all that sorta stuff I get and know and understand. I also understand like when Batko used to mention about the HOF being bullshit that the PWHF is the one that means the most to be inducted into. In fact even a lot of wrestlers are more honoured to be in the PWHF than the WWE's HOF so I get that completely. When Rick Martel was inducted in 2015 Batko was saying how great it is, such an honour and that's a TRUE credit to the talent due to the criteria to be inducted into the PWHF being more legit basically, so obviously out of the two that is the one to be in.

I know he was very proud that he actually went back to New York after to visit the hall, which you can see here and you can hear how proud he is talking about this and being inducted there. Probably more so than the WWE Hall Of Fame to be honest.



However, I think a few people misunderstand my feelings on the WWE Hall Of Fame like for example when I'v spoke about Rick Martel and other talents not being in there, yet they should have been a LONG time ago but for me when these talents are inducted into the WWE HOF they are put on the biggest stage of all time and their talents are showcased to the fans worldwide, something the WWE doesn't really do unless it benefits their on screen product at the time. New fans get to know these guys and give them credit more so, it's proof that a lot of people do go there with knowledge of the wrestling business as when Stan Hansen mentioned Rick Martel last year he got a huge pop for his name, my point is things like this feel great because it feels like the talents you love and adore are getting that little bit of credit they don't often get.



Again, I understand and know that most wrestling fans credit these talents highly, the one's who know but there is that element for me where it's like they should be showcased completely, not just Rick Martel there are a few talents I could name that fall into this also and honestly, once they've had that induction in the WWE Hall Of Fame on the big stage it just feels as though they've been credited to the whole WWE universe (as they call it) and I think that's nice, there is nothing worse than talented wrestlers who have given so much to the business on screen and off screen that just get ignored and it seems that whole generation does seem to get missed out for some bizarre reason, like what Hacksaw Jim Duggan mentions here.

Forward to 2:35 if you don't want to watch the whole video.



So for me it's not about the whole credibility of the Hall Of Fame which is debated by many but more so the fact they get this exposure on the big stage which not only honours them for fans who love their career but it also introduces them to new fans too, which I think it's how it should be. It's basically showcasing their career on the biggest stage possible around the world and it's that what I love where as the PWHF for example, many people don't even know about it.

Of course, that's all that matters that the real credit and industry credits them more so, however I do feel that a handful of talents should be in the HOF from Martel to Rude to Davey, Owen, Demolition, Bam Bam, Vader etc... all should be honoured on that big stage to not only say thank you but to showcase these talents to the fans all over the world for that one night, that's it.

So it's from this angle really why I like it. Do I feel it's important and the be all and end all, no. But do I feel that talents should be in there who are absolutely deserving, yes, 100% and that's what it is for me basically them being honoured on the main stage with that acceptance speech and then the round of applause after and it feels like 'Thank You' ... finally.

So what are your thoughts, how do you feel about the WWE not honouring the talents you feel should be in there, honoured and credited by the WWE? I'd be interested to hear what you guys think here :)
 
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#3 ·
how do you feel about the WWE not honouring the talents you feel should be in there
You have to remember that Hall of Fame inductions are intended to be a long-term tradition, and every year, they need at least 2 or 3 recognizable names to headline. Hence, they need to save some people (e.g. Vader, Martel) for later. If you induct everyone now, then who will they induct in 5 or 10 years, in other words?

Also, you say:

however I do feel that a handful of talents should be in the HOF from Martel to Rude to Davey, Owen, Demolition, Bam Bam, Vader etc
WWE has been trying to induct Owen since he died. His wife Martha won't allow it.
 
#4 ·
You have to remember that Hall of Fame inductions are intended to be a long-term tradition, and every year, they need at least 2 or 3 recognizable names to headline. Hence, they need to save some people (e.g. Vader, Martel) for later. If you induct everyone now, then who will they induct in 5 or 10 years, in other words?
Yeah I know. There still is many that are surprisingly not in before hand, I thought they took a bit long with Dibiase too to be honest but I'm talking more about the point of them actually being in, not how fast they're in or not.

Also, you say:



WWE has been trying to induct Owen since he died. His wife Martha won't allow it.
I'm completely aware of the Owen Hart thing. Read Bret's statement and rant many times in regards to Martha on his website. That line in the OP was just people I feel among the handful of talents that should be honoured. Owen is one of them regardless of Martha or if he will, he should is my point.
 
#6 ·
I know. I think this pisses off a lot of fans really does this. It's like I say, it's not so much the fact they're in the HOF as such it's more that I love to see these legends and their careers honoured on the big stage.

I've heard Rude is in this year, that's at least one off the list that will get credited and honoured on the big stage this year at least.

It's like Duggan says in that video, he has no problem with Edge going in, he thinks we have one of the best wrestlers we've had in Edge but a little time before you put them in there, let a little time go by. Then he goes on to say of course he has no control or no say over who they put in the HOF but hopefully one day they'll recognise that generation.

There's even talents before Lelaini and Rick's careers that are no doubt not honoured either, it's nuts. I mean, I bet there's many fans that don't even know about these people's careers and that's what it is for me really. Gives them that credit there which is what I like.

I just hate seeing talents of any kind underrated to be honest. Not just my personal preference but talents in general. That's why I often make threads here to credit some other talents, even if it's just someone like Hercules it's pretty nice to see them get some credit I think for what they did in the business :)
 
#7 ·
I'm less pissed now because some of the most egregious errors have been rectified... but it is still mind blowingly idiotic that guys like Martel, various tag teams, backstage guys, and Rick Rude are not in.

And listening to Pritchard, apparently there are a lot of lists with a lot of names that Vince just ignores because "it's not time". That's it. Apparently Randy's time was after his death. Luckily, Warrior lasted to be inducted so we didn't have another incidence of posthumous induction.
 
#9 ·
Yeah. You know what, the Warrior thing was crazy really but I'm so glad that he got that induction and that we got to see that speech. Sure, people can go on about Warrior's fall out with WWE and whatever (He's not the only one to fall out with them) but when he came back regardless of anything he was very dignified during his speech and even backstage. I remember hearing an interview with Ted Dibiase who had a few difficulties with Warrior and although we never really hear Dibiase knock talents unlike some, he was aduly enough to say he wishes he made amends with Warrior that little bit better because that moment he had on that stage was truly iconic. I'm so glad Warrior got to do that because that would have been yet another travesty had he not have done that and been inducted the same way Savage was for example.

I haven't heard any of Pritchard's podcasts but I have heard quite a bit about them. It's like @Vic Capri said above, the fact Vince uses names to sell tickets as opposed to anything else is a bit annoying. Sure, we understand they need that to sell the tickets but there are still way many talents that haven't been recognised on that big stage, which they probably should do. It's one night a year and it's only that one year they get acknowledged and recognised so well that surely it can't be too much to ask. But as mentioned in the OP it really is more about seeing their video package, the induction and then the applaud at the end. To me that just makes me feel like 'Thank You' and I feel happy that the specific talent has been recognised.

I completely hear you with the Warrior thing. I'm so glad that they did actually manage to do that before it became another Randy Savage thing. But how many others are they letting slip by. Vader apparently isn't doing to well lately though I've heard he's got a lot better so fingers crossed for that but get the dude inducted!!
 
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#10 ·
Yeah, I wanted to do the post here as for a while I've kinda felt misunderstood a little when I've spoke about certain talents being inducted into the Hall Of Fame. It really is for me that it's the biggest platform and these talents, who barely get recognition anyway get that for one night within a year and once they've had their induction that's it then for that talent. But they've been showcased and recognised on the big screen from their video package to their speech to the applaud at the end. After that final applaud I just feel like 'Yep, that talent has been recognised now' and it feels good.

It's more about the platform, them being credited on this for me to the fans all over the world. It puts them on the biggest stage and gives them that recognition for that one night only and that's why I like to see certain talents get inducted.

The PWHF is definitely a more credible HOF due to the criteria it takes to get in. But it has no platform really so people can argue about that side of things too. If a talent gets inducted in both, well that's just awesome I think as they've had both sides of it. Recognition on the biggest stage possible and recognition in the most credible HOF that we have.

It's that kinda thing for me, hence why I was wondering people's feelings from that perspective as opposed to being in the HOF as such if you get what I mean :)
 
#11 ·
In 2006 with Bret's induction I learned that if you're in good terms with the company, just don't be anxious that your favorite will be inducted...

What a good surprise was that.
 
#12 ·
The thing that kind of bothers me about it is the overall concept and the lack of legitimacy in sports entertainment/wrestling, in general.

What I mean is, we know you control what these talents accomplish. You're basing it off success, something they're scripted to have. To me, it doesn't make much sense to celebrate the achievements you decided whether or not someone could have.

Because you're not really honoring them. In a roundabout way, you're actually honoring yourself. You're honoring what you gave them, what you allowed them to do, how you presented them. So, in that sense, does anybody really earn it? Does the guy that won dozens of titles in a 20 year career deserve it more than the guy who spent 20 years doing jobs, so he could make others look good?

Quite frankly, I don't know but what I do know is there's an issue with the celebration of accomplishments that we, as a company, scripted. And not only did we, as a company, script those accomplishments, we're also scripting the celebration of them. When that's the case, you'll never get it right.
 
#13 ·
With the pre PG era wrestlers, this isn't a huge issue. Vince and the WWE, and the few guys that were not WWE and WWE wasn't involved, tended to push based on reaction. Is it scripted? Sure, but guys like Hogan, Hart, Warrior, and on and on were scripted to succeed because they got massively over. And, as much flak as he gets, Koko B Ware is actually a great example of a "non success" in the hall that actually deserves the spot. Almost every one that was alive and watching in that era remembers him. Martel, when he gets in, won't be in because of scripted world title runs, but because he was a good hand for so long and then took a gimmick and ran with it. Same with the Mounty. They aren't the most successful, but they have hall of fame careers despite that.

Today's generation? Yeah, it becomes harder because they have fought fan reactions and scripted success when success was not earned.
 
#15 ·
Enough to where I'm running a Mock WWE HOF on my website though I really don't have faves. Like many I've accepted that while they do get some inductions right the WWE HOF is a marketing tool. However, there are some who could be honored, such as the recently deceased Ivan Koloff or the man in the video the OP shared, Rick Martel.
 
#20 ·
It doesn't bother me as much as it used to when it comes to stars that I know will get in eventually as it's been shown that people are strategically placed in just to fill up the show with the added thought that it's better to wait another year if they deserve a headlining spot. What bothers me more is the cases like Chyna where pettiness will never likely allow her in. It's never been about prestige. That was squashed years ago with some of the members that made it in. All it takes is a pretty solid career and some longevity and you're in. I've just accepted that for what it is. I enjoy the acceptance speeches a lot. They alone almost make it worth it just listening to these stars. I've always wished they do a wing for the elite stars that is not so easy to get in, but that won't ever happen.
 
#22 ·
Simpsons Modern Life said:
I hate disagreeing with you cause you are a god damn fountain of knowledge so I feel that some people have better perspectives than me but with this I do feel differently about.

In regards to it being scripted, sure we all know that winning titles and things are put on them by writers however I still do feel those titles are earned. For example take Bret Hart, worked his way so much in the business and built himself up throughout eventually earning those titles. They wouldn't just put the title on Bret Hart, the guy had to fight and claw his way to the top to get the title put on him and even then it was a struggle, so in that sense although the actual winning of the title is scripted the earning of it is done genuinely I feel. They also have to prove to the people in the back that they can carry the title and the company too, sure some get it easy, I know and specially the points made about this era too but in general I think the titles are earned. Just in a completely different way.

But titles aside, I feel it's more about the contributions they gave to the business as well as how good they were and the work they put in. Also what they did behind the scenes too plays a part for me. I know as a viewer that doesn't effect us directly but technically it does when it benefits the product too. The years they gave to the business too and the dedication they gave to entertain us are all things that come to mind for me when I think about a talent being in the HOF.

They beat their bodies up for years to entertain us and often get nothing back for it. It's like an actor winning an award really but these guys do it live and put their bodies on the line too with it.

Take Piper and Dibiase for example. Their contributions to the business are huge, they were so good at what they did. Played great roles in the WWE and really benefit the WWE in their role (considering it's a WWE HOF even though I know they go out of that) but when Dibiase was inducted in 2010 it felt like a huge relief for me cause it was very frustrating in regards to him not being honoured and credited for the work he gave to the business in there, which is pretty much how I feel about Rick Martel right now for the same reasons. Plus he also did a ton for the business and other talents including Shawn Michaels and many others and gave years to the business staying very loyal to it too (I won't go too much into it but if you've seen his shoot there's things about his creative control, what he did for Tatanka, Zenk, Shawn. The contributions he gave for the business in and out are extensive) and it's all these things where I feel 'You know what, these guys should be honoured and credited for that'. It's like a Thank You basically from the WWE, wrestling business and the fans.

It also gives their talent the showcase it deserves on the big stage for that one night just once in their careers. And then they can sit back and put their feet up feeling very proud and complete about their accomplishments and what they gave to the business.

Sure. They don't need the WWE Hall Of Fame for this but for me it is about them being on the big stage and their talents being showcased for that one night on such a big scale, so people can see and be reminded of how good they were (some fans introduced to this also). Then after that final applause from their speech it just feels like 'Yep, this guy has finally been honoured and got the credit he/she deserved'.

That's kinda how it feels for me :)



I'll have to have a look at this at some point :)



Hopefully they do get in. The one's who should be honoured too. the problem is how many Randy Savage and Rick Rude inductions are we going to get though?
Appreciate this. Great examples w/ Piper and DiBiase. They were major heels in the '80s which is just important as a title reign. Aside from title reigns being scripted, they can be weak if there aren't good, memorable feuds for the champion or gates are down. Sometimes they are props for something bigger in the way of transitional reigns (e.g. Stan Stasiak, Iron Sheik, Sgt. Slaughter).

They Call Him Y2J said:
I have zero interest or respect for this as Braun Strowman isn't in. What a joke.
:lol

O-Dog said:
I could've worded it a little differently.

I didn't mean success shouldn't be a factor because it's scripted. In spite of it being scripted, the cream rises to the top. You have to show enough potential and promise to be rewarded in that regard. In terms of characters, you're presented something and it's completely on you to effectively portray that. But, not everybody is presented the same. Not everybody is given the same to work with. But, if we're going with the premise of guys destroying their bodies every night to entertain us, as if that's justification for induction, where are the jobbers? The enhancement talent whose only role was to lose every night, while making their opponent look better than they actually were. Is that not a contribution? No but it's one that doesn't get celebrated at all. And I'm not saying it should, I'm saying that with no obvious criteria behind the induction process, the argument can always be made that certain people aren't being recognized for their contributions.

My other issue is how, in certain instances, it comes off as honoring the gimmick more than the people behind them. Rikishi's a prime example. You inducted him based on his most successful run as one of your creations. But what about his stays in World Class and WCW? What about his stint with The Headshrinkers? "Make A Difference" Fatu? The Sultan? Now, I'm not saying either of those gimmicks are HOF worthy. I'm simply saying the man behind those gimmicks deserves to be celebrated as more than just Rikishi because it's a testament to him as a performer and his ability to play such a wide array of characters. Same thing goes for The Godfather, Ted Dibiase, Big Boss Man & Razor Ramon. Are you recognizing them for their career or a specific run within their career? I'm taking nothing away from their characters but by only inducting them as their character, you're choosing to celebrate your biggest creation for those guys.

I guess I just don't like the process or lack thereof.
Fair points! Thing is being that it's the WWE HOF the persona the wrestler had in WWE is going to be highlighted especially if it was even moderately successful. Rikishi was probably Solofa Fatu's most popular persona so I get the logic although I wouldn't be mad at a Headshrinkers induction. As for Razor Ramon, it was one of the biggest characters in the New Generation Era and probably ever in the WWE so it was definitely worthy. Plus, I believe there are plans to induct the nWo someday hence Scott Hall not being inducted.
 
#25 ·
Fair points! Thing is being that it's the WWE HOF the persona the wrestler had in WWE is going to be highlighted especially if it was even moderately successful. Rikishi was probably Solofa Fatu's most popular persona so I get the logic although I wouldn't be mad at a Headshrinkers induction. As for Razor Ramon, it was one of the biggest characters in the New Generation Era and probably ever in the WWE so it was definitely worthy. Plus, I believe there are plans to induct the nWo someday hence Scott Hall not being inducted.
I get that.

I just feel that it should be more important to induct the man (or woman), rather than their individual persona. Kind of like how, for example, Jack Nicholson has a star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame instead of Jack Torrance, Frank Costello, The Joker or whatever would be considered his greatest role.

As for the bold, they inducted Kevin Nash as Kevin Nash. So, I don't think inducting Razor was a way to preserve a Scott Hall induction and in that regard, it comes off as more of a marketing scheme.
 
#24 ·
I don't really care for the WWE HOF or any hall of fame. I feel that it's impossible to do one without bias. The only HOF that could gain my respect would be my own one and I don't care to write one.

For as much as the WWE HOF can be treated like a joke with derision and ridicule, some (slightly bitter) comments from wrestlers about not being in there do make me think it holds more credibility among those within the business than we may like to think.

On balance, if it makes the workers happy to have their work honoured by the biggest HOF in the industry then I don't have too much issue with it.
 
#26 ·
O-Dog said:
I get that.

I just feel that it should be more important to induct the man (or woman), rather than their individual persona. Kind of like how, for example, Jack Nicholson has a star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame instead of Jack Torrance, Frank Costello, The Joker or whatever would be considered his greatest role.
I feel that but acting differs from pro wrestling in that an actor can have several prominent roles they're known for especially if their career spans decades while in wrestling a persona of an individual might have draw more ppl and sell more merchandise than their other ones. Even w/ the same persona, they might be more known for a segment of their career (e.g. Gorilla Monsoon). Not to mention face/heel turns.

O-Dog said:
As for the bold, they inducted Kevin Nash as Kevin Nash. So, I don't think inducting Razor was a way to preserve a Scott Hall induction and in that regard, it comes off as more of a marketing scheme.
WWE actually had planned to induct Nash as Diesel initially. In fact, they said "Diesel" in the first announcement and Nash himself mentioned it in his induction speech. However, he reportedly declined b/c of the reputation of Diesel as a weak drawing champion and his non-wrestling projects he wanted the credibility for.
 
#28 · (Edited)
I'm just going to say what everyone on this forum feels.
I think you just need to face the reality that you are the only Rick Martel fan in the world, that he was nothing more than an 80's jobber (equivalent of a Heath Slater).
He does not belong in the hall of fame. That he will never ever be in there because he accomplished nothing and was just there to pad out the lower card. No one knows him in 2017, no one cares. He was and will always be, irrelevant.
Sorry, but you just need to accept that. I don't know if you're his son or something, but it's weird...
Brooklyn Brawler and Disco Inferno have more claim for a HOF spot. Stop this lifelong never ending campaign.
 
#29 · (Edited)
Haha, thanks for that. I'll take that all on board and thanks for speaking for the rest of the forum in regards to what they think about me.

Seriously though. You clearly don't know anything about Rick Martel's career, his work or anything.

What about everything such as Flair, Duggan, Dibiase, Shawn and loads of others talking about how he should be in there for his contributions. Russo thought he already was in there and was surprised when he heard he wasn't. Jim Ross said "I could see Rick Martel in the HOF someday. His body of work is impressive', Piper said 'He should be in every Hall Of Fame in the world', but wait moveznflips on Wrestling Forum knows better.

Also, how do you think he got into the PWHF, what do you know about the PWHF?

Educate yourself before you come out with ridiculous ignorant comments.
 
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#30 ·
Martel notched three WWE tag team title reigns while being part of two teams considered to be amongst the best ones in WWE history plus The Model was a solid gimmick. So he more than meets the mark of the Hall's seemingly non-existent standards. And in a legit one he would belong.

But while we're on the subject, yesterday I read an interesting tidbit about Bruce Prichard's appearance on Austin's podcast once in regards to the WWE's process for the Hall. Prichard said that in the late '90s to '00 staff w/in the company would submit their picks and it would go into a black hole - Vince. Then one day Vince would come back w/ his own list. I chuckled at that last bit.
 
#31 ·
Exactly. I think @moveznflips_ is just irked by me for some reason, ah well. I'll just make sure I tag him now in every Rick Martel post I make.

He was also the longest reigning champion in AWA for a consecutive 595 days. From what I heard Stan Hansen didn't want him to drop the belt or something, he spoke really highly of Rick at his HOF speech for quite a while which got a huge pop.

Around Wrestlemania VII he was winding down because he wanted to be closer to home after the loss of his sister. He stayed with the WWE and honoured his contract, that's why he didn't get the push around that time as he was leaving the company. Shawn Michaels, Tatanka and XPac were all nurtured by him as Vince wanted them to work with him, which Rick lead all their matches and got Shawn his first big PPV pay off at Summerslam.

Shawn actually went to Rick before anyone and asked if he could travel with him to learn how to be a great heel, he chose Rick over anyone and went on to be one of the greatest as we know. To his own credit of course but he learnt the fundamentals originally from Rick about being a heel and he obviously went to him for a reason. Shawn is very gracious in regards to him as is XPac who said he taught him a fountain of knowledge, he's really highly respected in the business.

I've heard quite a bit about Prichards podcasts too speaking of him. Didn't know he was on the Austin one though but that's pretty cool. Vince though haha
 
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