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A discussion on talent who played a face and a heel, which do you prefer and your thoughts?

2K views 18 replies 11 participants last post by  Simpsons Modern Life 
#1 ·


Many wrestlers were pretty decent and adaptable in both roles (Rick Martel and Roddy Piper are an example of this), some obviously just suited a preferred face (Tito and Steamboat for example), though most wrestlers may have had a babyface and a heel run at some point throughout their career, I understand that in many cases some of us here will only be familiar with a certain run or more familiar than one than the other, though if that's the case, please talk about this on the individual talent.

If you can kindly comment on each talent throughout this list, I would love to hear your thoughts and vibes on things, I imagine with some talents it will be quite mixed, where as some, probably may lean to a preferred face (Dibiase for example, though I have heard he was a pretty good baby face at one point) .... so kindly go through the talent here and say what you feel about their baby face runs as opposed to their heel runs, what you liked, what you preferred and any memories basically that stand out for you?

Here's the talent here I was thinking about :

Kane

The Rock

Ted Dibiase Snr

Rick Martel

Bret Hart

Curt Hennig

Roddy Piper

Scott Hall

Honky Tonk Man

Jake Roberts

HHH

Edge

Undertaker

Mick Foley

Randy Savage

Sean Waltman

Shawn Michaels

Owen Hart


I was thinking about Rick Rude and Ric Flair ... but did they have any good baby face runs, I'm actually really not sure to be honest?

Also, feel free to bring any talent up you like also, obviously I can't think of everyone and this could be one massive list if I did that, so anyone who may come to mind for you, that you'd like to include in this discussion please do ... we could even learn some things from various generations and territories too here :)
 
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#2 ·
Interesting thread, I dont have much time so just done the first three I remembered the most....

I will share my first thoughts, so probably strongest memories, of each wrestlers below

Kane - As a bad-ass wrecking machine heel or face around 1998-2001 he was cool. After that I think he worked well as a heel, although his 2002 face run was pretty sweet too! Good in either role.

The Rock - I think this would be a a whole topic on itself! 1998 Nation Rock is my earliest memories that stand out for me. He was just a dick who was good in the ring, his IC reign was special for me.

HHH - As a heel in 2000 and 2001. Man as a kid I hated him! Which meant he was doing his job perfectly.
 
#4 ·
Yeah definitely, good response, when you get some time, be interesting to hear you put in more input also ... was a great response that so thank you :)

I'm not necessarily sure what you're looking for here. Clarify a bit?
Just basically go through the talents that I've listed, say whether you prefer them in their face or heel roles, any memories, any favourite moments and things like that ... or just give a general discussion on each talent in their opposing roles .... obviously some people will have more familiarity with certain roles with the talent (for example some may know Perfect best as a heel) ... but just give any input as much as you can in regards to each talent and their roles as babyfaces and heels that they played throughout their career :)
 
#5 ·
The Rock, I preferred him as the heel Corporate Rock from late 1998-early 1999.
 
#9 ·
Edge: During his heel run in 2006, he had some good matches against Cena and Foley.

Curt Hennig: As a heel, he held the "Perfect" moniker to his name in his matches not only with his wrestling style but also adding a little bit of cockiness that he could always back up in the ring.

Shawn Michaels: His early heel days in the WWF squaring off against the best legends of the business was something to behold, matches with Razor Ramon and Bret Hart have stood the test of time.

Roddy Piper: Ah yes the man who asks the questions and changes the answers, we can always remember smashing a coconut on Jimmy Snuka's head and rivalries he always was a good talker.

Hope that's enough of my input. :)
 
#10 ·
Yeah awesome, thanks :) ... Yeah Piper is one I kind of feel could get mixed vibes from people, as he was so good at both, I'm more familiar with his face run than his heel work, though I have seen a fair bit of that too ... though my preference does lean towards preferring Piper as a face ... however he was a really good heel too, so it's kinda hard with him, cause he was so good in both roles :)

Agree about Perfect too, the way he would chew his gum, throw his towel and hit the gum with his hand ... he just played the heel role so well :)
 
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#11 ·
From the guys I watched over years:

Kane
I'd love to say he was better as a heel, considering his monster gimmick, but that's simply not the case. Think of Kane's greatest moments, most of those were as a face. He was most over, I think, when he was teaming with X-Pac and developing a relatable personality to the masses. He was starting to speak, he was wrestling a high flying style, and the crowd ate it up, as did I. When they betrayed him, Kane was about as over as pretty much anyone ever. His reactions when he got ahold of X-Pac were incredible. Then his partnering with Taker over the years, Hurricane, etc. His later heel runs were all pretty forgettable.


The Rock


I love heel Rock. But there's no denying he's the greatest face ever. His old persona was just so loveable, yet hateable. Telling the crowd not to sing along with him, insulting announcers, saying awful things to Mankind on a nightly basis, he had so much more free reign. And it was awesome.

HHH


Personally, I think HHH is the greatest heel in the history of wrestling. I know MANY will disagree. But fuck them. The guy was booked to absolute perfection. You wanted to see Taker, Rock, Austin, Kane, Foley and others tear his ass apart, and maybe even kill him..but he'd come out on top every time. Unforgiven 99 and the 6-pck challenge is one of my favorite events ever, simply because everyone HATED HHH by that time. And he fucking did the impossible. I loved it. I still loved it. Pushing a dominant, hateable heel to rarely lose against the good guy is just brilliant to me.

Edge

This, I'm unsure about. He was great with Christian, he was great on his own. I'd have to say heel though. He lacked personality as a face, and excelled rapidly as a heel. E&C immediately got huge with the 5 second poses, and as soon as Edge turned after his injury, it worked, and he was champion a short time later. I think my second favorite storyline was Edge chasing the title for the first time. Every week, he'd get screwed out of the title, or out of his chance. I only wished it went on longer. When he finally won it, it was a culmination of months of building, which is rare.


Undertaker

Face. Heel Taker drags on promos. I love him, but he's so much better when you're not supposed to hate him. Especially the period of him teaming with Kane, and feuding with a little wormy Kurt Angle in 2000/2001. His later years were a bit boring either way. But face Bad Ass Taker was awesome.


Mick Foley

Mick Foley shouldn't be on TV if I'm supposed to hate him. He's the most loveable wrestler probably ever.


Sean Waltman

I loved him with Kane. His constant kicking out of everything, everywhere is better fit for a face character. But he's extremely hateable as a bad guy. So I'll call a tie.

Shawn Michaels


Face. The Iron Man match Shawn Michaels will always be Shawn Michaels to me. Though, he's pretty much great in every incarnation of himself.
 
#15 ·
That's a great post and a real interesting take you have on Kane there, really good post so thank you :)

Gregory Helms - For a long time Hurricane was hugely over so when Helms got drafted to SD and revamped as Heel Gregory Helms I was shocked in a very good way, he rocked that character though WWE keeping him 1 of the longest reigning Cruiserweight champions probably killed that character for alot of fans.

Kofi Kingston - Idk whether he was being Heel or just upping his 'aggression' for the AE but briefly Kofi really got over with me selling that bad vibe.

JBL - After seeing him as Bradshaw and APA it was a huge character change seeing him go the Heel route a la Dallas JR but his promo heat was epic and often hilariously serious.

Regal - As tagteam with Tajiri that was a blast almost up there with KaienTai.
JBL is a good call also, I do like the heel JBL :)


Let's see. Among others:

-Piper's hard, since he's so brilliant either way. I think it would be as a face, since he kept his rougher edge that set him apart from other faces at the time. But evil Piper more than earns his status as one of the best villains of all time too

-when it comes to Taker, it basically comes down to just how groundbreakingly scary the original evil Western Mortician was to 9 year old me. That image trumps every other incarnation of the Deadman that's come since

-while all-Canadian Bret was a good evolution of the character when he needed it, face Bret still stands out more, a quieter different kind of heroic champion than what had come before, which was original in and of itself

-you can't top heel Perfect, one of the best of the smugly arrogant heels. He made you want to see him get smacked around but good at his peak. Unlike so many other longtime heels, he was nonetheless at least passable in a face capacity

-same logic with Martel; the Model just fit him to a T, although I can still see why he was the AWA's top hero for a while through his Strike Force work

-Savage is another tough one, also being equally well both ways. Like Piper, though, I would prefer face Savage since he similarly never lost his harsh edge completely--and as for many fans at his peak, it's simply impossible to place him apart from Elizabeth, who, contrary to what WCW thought, can only work in a face capacity

-solo Shawn was probably better as the smug heel; he had the physique, and the agility to back it up. Nonetheless, he was also terrific as a pure face in the Rockers and made you not want to see him get hurt
You pretty much have the same vibes as me in regards to this, Savage, Piper, Rick etc ... pretty much everything you have said is my thoughts exactly, Owen too ... and yes, definitely throw some more into the discussion, these I listed are what came to mind for me and were ones I thought made people think, so do throw some more talents in for sure in regards to this discussion, it could be a pretty good discussion if people continue to contribute :)
 
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#12 ·
Gregory Helms - For a long time Hurricane was hugely over so when Helms got drafted to SD and revamped as Heel Gregory Helms I was shocked in a very good way, he rocked that character though WWE keeping him 1 of the longest reigning Cruiserweight champions probably killed that character for alot of fans.

Kofi Kingston - Idk whether he was being Heel or just upping his 'aggression' for the AE but briefly Kofi really got over with me selling that bad vibe.

JBL - After seeing him as Bradshaw and APA it was a huge character change seeing him go the Heel route a la Dallas JR but his promo heat was epic and often hilariously serious.

Regal - As tagteam with Tajiri that was a blast almost up there with KaienTai.
 
#13 ·
Let's see. Among others:

-Piper's hard, since he's so brilliant either way. I think it would be as a face, since he kept his rougher edge that set him apart from other faces at the time. But evil Piper more than earns his status as one of the best villains of all time too

-when it comes to Taker, it basically comes down to just how groundbreakingly scary the original evil Western Mortician was to 9 year old me. That image trumps every other incarnation of the Deadman that's come since

-while all-Canadian Bret was a good evolution of the character when he needed it, face Bret still stands out more, a quieter different kind of heroic champion than what had come before, which was original in and of itself

-you can't top heel Perfect, one of the best of the smugly arrogant heels. He made you want to see him get smacked around but good at his peak. Unlike so many other longtime heels, he was nonetheless at least passable in a face capacity

-same logic with Martel; the Model just fit him to a T, although I can still see why he was the AWA's top hero for a while through his Strike Force work

-Savage is another tough one, also being equally well both ways. Like Piper, though, I would prefer face Savage since he similarly never lost his harsh edge completely--and as for many fans at his peak, it's simply impossible to place him apart from Elizabeth, who, contrary to what WCW thought, can only work in a face capacity

-solo Shawn was probably better as the smug heel; he had the physique, and the agility to back it up. Nonetheless, he was also terrific as a pure face in the Rockers and made you not want to see him get hurt
 
#14 ·
Additionally:

-Jake was decidedly better as a heel; heck, his full-tilt psychopath character towards the end of his primary WWF run is still genuinely scary today. Perhaps ironically all the drugs and liquor he was downing at the time inadvertently helped in this regard, but when you looked in Psycho Jake's eyes, you genuinely saw the devil himself

-with Waltman, it depended which role he was playing. The 1-2-3 Kid was a better face, X-Pac was a better heel (as too was his earlier GWF Lightning Kid)

-solo Owen was a better heel, easily. He did the angry brat perfectly. Still, I enjoyed him as a face in the New Foundation a lot, and to a lesser extent in High Energy

-Hall's a tough one too. Both as Razor Ramon and in his runs in the AWA and WCW, he worked well both ways. I might give a slight edge to heel Razor/Hall, but it's not by much

Are there more guys we could add to the discussion as well?
 
#16 ·
DiBiase's face work was in the UWF, when he would stand tall with "Dr. Death", Hacksaw Duggan, and Cowboy Bill Watts against the Russians and the Freebirds. His heel run there was also good, people lost their minds when he associated himself with General Skandor Akbar.

Flair actually had a couple of good face runs, notably right after Terry Funk attacked him and piledrived him through a table and then his run when he returned to WCW in '93. His battles with Barry Windham, Vader, and Rick Rude worked really well at that time.
 
#19 ·
Yeah, I didn't realise the history that Duggan and Dibiase had until recently while I was with them both, they are very close friends, you can tell ... I think Duggan had a 35 year career and Dibiase 30 plus, but those guys have a lot of history together ... I was never a huge fan of Duggan in the ring, I appreciated him and liked him but never marked over him or anything (though I did run around and go Hooooo a lot, with the tongue and 'Tough Guy' as a kid ha) .... but I've got a lot of respect for Duggan as he really earned his craft in the business ... I might do a thread on him at some point, as I think he's kind of under appreciated :)

What was Dibiase's face run like then, and Flair also, I don't really recall, I've probably seen some of his face run with what you've mentioned but I've watched a lot of wrestling, so don't really remember it :)

Kane: Prefer him as a silent, monster heel. He's way too scary looking to be anything but.

The Rock: Could perform in either role incredibly well, but my favourite was as Corporate Champion.

Ted Dibiase Snr: I haven't seen as much of his earlier face work, but he was as close to a perfect heel as you can get, in my opinion.

Rick Martel: As a babyface in Strike Force he was quite good, but as the Model, he was incredible.

Bret Hart: In ring, he could do both styles really well. His babyface promos were never good, but as a hell, he could kill it.

Curt Hennig: Heel Mr Perfect was basically perfect.

Roddy Piper: I have better memories of him as a face, and as a kid, I loved Roddy as a face. But looking back, he was a great heel. The incident with Jimmy Snuka is legendary.

Scott Hall: Good at either, maybe better as a heel.

Honky Tonk Man: A great heel. Able to get crazy heat. His IC run is my favourite heel champ run, just because it was so infuriating.

Jake Roberts: He was great at both, but I just want to cheer for Jake.

HHH: Great heel, no matter what anybody says.

Edge: Could go either way.

Undertaker: When he first started, he was pretty intimidating. But he was too awesome to be a heel.

Mick Foley: Real life Mick Foley is such a great guy that I can't see him as anything but a face anymore.

Randy Savage: Could do either without making much of a change to his character. Such a great performer.


Sean Waltman
: Gross. 1-2-3 Kid was fine, I suppose.

Shawn Michaels: In his first run, a heel. In his second run, babyface.

Owen Hart: Amazing heel in his feud against Bret. Very entertaining and underrated.

Yeah, pretty much my feelings on most of these, seems like a few people are in the same boat as me, like with Piper for example, it's clear he was an incredible heel and I can see this too, but I do prefer him as a face and know him more as a face, even though really you hear about him as a heel more in hindsight ... but he was so versatile, same goes for Savage.

Agree about Martel too, I also prefer him as The Model, but he was good as a babyface too, it's like the Iron Sheik says he was a great babyface (a compliment from the Sheik is a compliment even though he did say he could beat the fuck out of him if he wanted lol) ... not sure if you've seen this, but this is a good and very interesting video :)

 
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#17 ·
Kane-Heel
The Rock- Heel
Ted Dibiase Snr- Heel
Rick Martel- Heel
Bret Hart- Heel
Curt Hennig- Face
Roddy Piper- Heel
Scott Hall- Heel
Honky Tonk Man- Heel
Jake Roberts- Heel
HHH- Heel
Edge- Heel
Undertaker- Face
Mick Foley- Face
Randy Savage- Heel
Sean Waltman- Heel
Shawn Michaels- Face
Owen Hart- Heel
 
#18 ·
Kane: Prefer him as a silent, monster heel. He's way too scary looking to be anything but.

The Rock: Could perform in either role incredibly well, but my favourite was as Corporate Champion.

Ted Dibiase Snr: I haven't seen as much of his earlier face work, but he was as close to a perfect heel as you can get, in my opinion.

Rick Martel: As a babyface in Strike Force he was quite good, but as the Model, he was incredible.

Bret Hart: In ring, he could do both styles really well. His babyface promos were never good, but as a hell, he could kill it.

Curt Hennig: Heel Mr Perfect was basically perfect.

Roddy Piper: I have better memories of him as a face, and as a kid, I loved Roddy as a face. But looking back, he was a great heel. The incident with Jimmy Snuka is legendary.

Scott Hall: Good at either, maybe better as a heel.

Honky Tonk Man: A great heel. Able to get crazy heat. His IC run is my favourite heel champ run, just because it was so infuriating.

Jake Roberts: He was great at both, but I just want to cheer for Jake.

HHH: Great heel, no matter what anybody says.

Edge: Could go either way.

Undertaker: When he first started, he was pretty intimidating. But he was too awesome to be a heel.

Mick Foley: Real life Mick Foley is such a great guy that I can't see him as anything but a face anymore.

Randy Savage: Could do either without making much of a change to his character. Such a great performer.


Sean Waltman
: Gross. 1-2-3 Kid was fine, I suppose.

Shawn Michaels: In his first run, a heel. In his second run, babyface.

Owen Hart: Amazing heel in his feud against Bret. Very entertaining and underrated.
 
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