The effect of Lesnar's win at WM on history. - Wrestling Forum : WWE, TNA, Debate League, Wrestling Videos, Women of Wrestling Forums
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Old 07-29-2014, 10:24 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default The effect of Lesnar's win at WM on history.

Saw where Rugbyrat rated Lesner above Savage all time mainly based on his win over Taker in the Savage GOAT thread. I thought it would be a good discussion piece for the classics section.

So in your opinion in the history of wrestling what impact does the win have on Lesner's place?

IMO, I am not really sure yet. In a sport with predetermined finishes do victories have that big of an impact? Or is it years of busting your butt with good matches? Lesner obviously has already had a huge career but I just don't see him in any way as a top 20 worthy figure. Guys in my top 20 like Thesz, Race, Andre, Savage, Funk, Lawler, Rhodes etc...spent decades working, and others like Rock or Hogan had such an impact on the sport that it would be neglegent not to include them. But Lesner has not really done either of those things with as much of an impact IMO. He's close at least on the later, but I don't think the win over Taker can push him into the top 20. Maybe the top 40 in North America?


Interested to read dialogue. I can see value to both sides of the argument. Where do you come out on this?
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Old 07-29-2014, 10:26 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: The effect of Lesner's win at WM on history.

I admire you for knowing where to post topics. Rep.
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Old 07-29-2014, 10:31 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: The effect of Lesner's win at WM on history.

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Originally Posted by Greenlawler View Post
In a sport with predetermined finishes do victories have that big of an impact?
No.

Booking of victories, championship reigns etc are always reflective of a person's position on the card, and a person's position on the card tends to be earned by how over they are with the crowd. Overness in turn tends to be based on how talented an individual is. Somewhere along the line people started getting the idea that championship titles are what make a professional wrestler great, when that is not and has not ever been the case. When people talk about Hulk Hogan it's not because he held the WWF championship for however long it was, because his being booked to win and keep a fake championship title is not what made him great. It was how ridiculously popular he became while holding that championship that made him, and in turn the championship he was holding, great.

Hence, Lesnar's beating the streak has no effect on how high or low he may be on your GOAT ranking.
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Old 07-29-2014, 10:32 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: The effect of Lesner's win at WM on history.

I don't think the win meant a god damn thing. Lesnar was already as high as he was ever gonna go. They should've given it to Bray Wyatt, the Streak would've been the biggest rub of all time for an unestablished guy and it meant dick.
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Old 07-29-2014, 10:36 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: The effect of Lesner's win at WM on history.

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Originally Posted by Greenlawler View Post
Saw where Rugbyrat rated Lesner above Savage all time mainly based on his win over Taker in the Savage GOAT thread. I thought it would be a good discussion piece for the classics section.

So in your opinion in the history of wrestling what impact does the win have on Lesner's place?

IMO, I am not really sure yet. In a sport with predetermined finishes do victories have that big of an impact? Or is it years of busting your butt with good matches? Lesner obviously has already had a huge career but I just don't see him in any way as a top 20 worthy figure. Guys in my top 20 like Thesz, Race, Andre, Savage, Funk, Lawler, Rhodes etc...spent decades working, and others like Rock or Hogan had such an impact on the sport that it would be neglegent not to include them. But Lesner has not really done either of those things with as much of an impact IMO. He's close at least on the later, but I don't think the win over Taker can push him into the top 20. Maybe the top 40 in North America?


Interested to read dialogue. I can see value to both sides of the argument. Where do you come out on this?
That victory does very little for Lesnar's legacy in wrestling. Lesnar winning was more about Taker losing, than Lesnar winning.

I'd love to have a discussion about how you consider your top 20...i've never understood how guys like Thesz or Race or Funk are anywhere near the bigger names in WWE history, but that's a discussion for a different topic i suppose.

Sticking to topic - looking at top WWE guys, i still have Lesnar behind all of Hogan, Rock, Austin, HBK, Taker, Cena, Bret, Savage, HHH, Andre, just to name a few. That's not even to say he's definately #11 after those names, because names like Warrior, Y2J, Angle amongst others also merit consideration, but he is likely part of those guys.

So top 20? Top 20 in my list for sure, but top 20 in your list where you consider a bunch of non-WWE guys from the 70s or earlier as bigger than the biggest WWE guys, nope. Cuz you still have to fit in all of my guys amongst your older guys lol, and assuming you have more than 9 older guys, i reckon Lesnar remains out of your top 20 as well
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Old 07-29-2014, 10:41 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: The effect of Lesner's win at WM on history.

Lesnar is an interesting guy, he's probably like top 40, but he's like the only legitimate badass the wrestling business has ever seen. He adds legitimacy in 2014 even as a part timer. Dude is a freak of an athlete. We never seen someone like him and probably never will

He has no gimmick he truly is an ass kicker

I can see him as top 20 but I can understand why people don't.


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Old 07-29-2014, 10:44 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: The effect of Lesner's win at WM on history.

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Originally Posted by WrayBryatt View Post
Lesnar is an interesting guy, he's probably like top 40, but he's like the only legitimate badass the wrestling business has ever seen. He adds legitimacy in 2014 even as a part timer. Dude is a freak of an athlete. We never seen someone like him and probably never will

He has no gimmick he truly is an ass kicker

I can see him as top 20 but I can understand why people don't.
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Originally Posted by Mister Saint Laurent on Xavier Woods' Gimmick
Man, talk about giving a guy nothing to work with. Imagine you've been called up to tv and they basically say to you "You're well educated. (which apparently because of your skin color means that this is an incredible thing.) We can't believe that someone with your skin color has the level of education that you have, so your gimmick is just gonna be that we put you on tv and brag that you went to school. Cause that's basically the gimmick that they gave him, how much more racist could his gimmick have been? Am I missing something here? What was the reason that the people were supposed to get behind him, other than the company just saying "phht, well, he's...in school".
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Old 07-29-2014, 10:57 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: The effect of Lesner's win at WM on history.

I think it helps Brock's case to be a little higher than I'd put him, given that he had to be important enough for Vince to give him the nod over Taker in the first place. Still, I wouldn't put him above Savage.

I'd put Lesnar in that Warrior/Goldberg category as an impact player who was a huge deal when he was around and was hot, drew money, but was never around long enough and wasn't important enough to the business (nor was the business as important to him) to be considered an all-time great. Wrestling goes on without Brock Lesnar. We've seen it numerous times over the last two years. It's harder to say that about a John Cena, who was the top guy when WWE needed him the most.

WWE didn't even hit a speed bump when he left in 2004, because they were running whole hog with new guys like Benoit, Eddie, Orton and had JBL, Cena, and Batista on the horizon. If Cena left, there's a definite void.
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Old 07-29-2014, 11:03 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: The effect of Lesner's win at WM on history.

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Originally Posted by Bobholly39 View Post
That victory does very little for Lesnar's legacy in wrestling. Lesnar winning was more about Taker losing, than Lesnar winning.

I'd love to have a discussion about how you consider your top 20...i've never understood how guys like Thesz or Race or Funk are anywhere near the bigger names in WWE history, but that's a discussion for a different topic i suppose.

Sticking to topic - looking at top WWE guys, i still have Lesnar behind all of Hogan, Rock, Austin, HBK, Taker, Cena, Bret, Savage, HHH, Andre, just to name a few. That's not even to say he's definately #11 after those names, because names like Warrior, Y2J, Angle amongst others also merit consideration, but he is likely part of those guys.

So top 20? Top 20 in my list for sure, but top 20 in your list where you consider a bunch of non-WWE guys from the 70s or earlier as bigger than the biggest WWE guys, nope. Cuz you still have to fit in all of my guys amongst your older guys lol, and assuming you have more than 9 older guys, i reckon Lesnar remains out of your top 20 as well
I have guys like Thesz, Race, and Funk in the top 20 because the question was about the top 20 regardless of company, and in the 100 year history of wrestling as we know it, the WWF was not the big dog for at least 70 of those years. I'll pm you so we don't have this debate here.
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Old 07-29-2014, 11:08 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: The effect of Lesner's win at WM on history.

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