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post #31 of 34 (permalink) Old 03-01-2013, 03:15 PM Thread Starter
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Re: South African police drag handcuffed man behind van

Originally Posted by Asenath View Post
Oh, I'm sure that the residual effects of colonialism are having a terrible effect on the population. You see it most everywhere the indigenous populations have been treated like chattel or sub-humans. It takes decades for these things to right themselves. It's terrible, but totally predictable.

I'm just tired of all the pearl-clutching that goes along with it. "You mean they've kept a large portion of their population uneducated and disenfranchised, and now there's civil unrest and violence? WHAT?"
I don't deny the effects of colonialism and Apartheid. Of course the situation was predictable. What I find horrible is that the end of Apartheid was totally mismanaged, and unthought. The biggest shame is the lack of trustable statistics about the current and past South Africa.

The past ANC governements and current one haven't done anything to solve the situation. Worse they use the current problems to gain votes, blaming "interior and foreign enemies"(whites and immigrants).

They chose to fire policemen, soldiers, administrators, economists, public workers, simply because they were white and instead they hired people without any real education from common ethnicities, family members and friends. They corrupted the full system.

They are currently pouring oil on the fire. Trust me, the ethnic tensions won't stop with black versus white. Zulu or Ndebele already have ethnic parties.

South Africa is really falling and the "white burden" or "white guilt" discourses you use won't solve anything.

Originally Posted by Asenath View Post
Excuse me if I find this to be a dubious source.
At least read it, the methodology and analysis are sociologically correct and the statistics weren't invented.

Last edited by Yamada_Taro; 03-01-2013 at 03:23 PM.
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post #32 of 34 (permalink) Old 03-01-2013, 05:53 PM
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Re: South African police drag handcuffed man behind van

Originally Posted by King_Of_This_World View Post
When white people ran it, it was.

Just like Zimbabwe, just like the whole of Africa, they were all a million times better off under white European rule, for both blacks and whites living in them. 4000 white farmers slaughtered in SA the past 10-15 years, thousands more blacks too. Its turned into a hellhole of a country when it was once the most advanced, modern and prosperous nation in African history with the highest standards of living Africa has ever had, and black South Africans will ever have.

But again, that was when whites ran it.

Very, very sad to see what has become of these places, once the jewell in Africa's crown. I'm not saying those things just to be 'racist', they are the harsh truth.

Only one group of people have turned SA into what it is today, and they are the same people who have done exactly the same to Zimbabwe, or as it used to be known, 'The bread basket of Africa'.
Just like the white people from other countries are leeching Africa for its resources and keeping them poor. But of course you completely overlook that.

And your so called "truths" are questionable.

Originally Posted by King_Of_This_World View Post

Whites built South Africa, blacks have destroyed it. Thats the truth.
lol. You keep believing that.

Originally Posted by King_Of_This_World View Post
South Africa isn't that far behind.

Originally Posted by Asenath View Post
I love how some people are just comfortable enough to let their bigotry and ignorance flap around out in public. Why did I bother clicking on this thread?
It's usually the same person.

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Last edited by kobra860; 03-01-2013 at 05:59 PM.
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post #33 of 34 (permalink) Old 03-01-2013, 06:51 PM
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Re: South African police drag handcuffed man behind van

Oh look, King Of This World is banned. I was wondering when that was going to happen.

Police in SA are brutal but some of that has to stem from the crime rate they're dealing with. Not to say they have any excuse for the sort of abhorrent behaviour caught in the op video, but the way they treat people is a reflection of a wider violence in society. Not all that unusual in places that have experienced sudden, radical changes in politics. It can take a long time to work through the fallout to arrive at a stable, new normal.

Can't say I blame that poor man for not wanting to get into a police van with them, yet his reluctance probably helped seal his fate. Law enforcement hates defiance that makes them look bad in front of an audience.
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post #34 of 34 (permalink) Old 03-02-2013, 08:33 AM
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Re: South African police drag handcuffed man behind van

For fuck's sake, I can't even form a coherent argument because of how angered Yamada_Taro's ignoramic understanding of the country has left me.

Originally Posted by Yamada_Taro View Post
I know that some of those websites are controversial :

- http://www.thetruthaboutsouthafrica.....html#!/exjun_

When you have politicians who sing one anthem containing the words "kill the boers, kill the white", you know what will happen.
What the fuck are you talking about? Yeah, White farmers are murdered but to overstate it as a genocide fueled by racist ideology (as this trail of thought often stems from) seemingly forgets the millions that die of hunger/poverty because of our past. It's all too easy to miss-quote facts into one's defences to escape the truth that South Africans need to understand the role they play in permeating segregation and inequality to this day. Just because we're a democracy does not mean we're now to just drop our responsibilities and scream "GET THE FUCK OVER IT, BLACK MAN".

As for the bolded part, way to hyperbolise the situation. The man who had sung that is no longer a politician (he was found guilty of contempt, remember?). The song has historical significance. I agree that it perhaps shouldn't have been used as he did but it has NOT incited racial violence against White men. It also doesn't say "kill the White", just the boer. It is rather a symbol of the "master" that rules them not the White race in its entirety.

Besides, what's the deal in quoting a few embellished stories on what it's like to be White in South Africa? It proves nothing. I can quote millions of people who still think the Earth is four thousand years old. Equally, I could quote tens of millions of South Africans who don't see a difference between Apartheid and our democracy and that has nothing to do with the ANC. Sure, the ANC aren't too equipped to handle the shitty situation they were given, but neither is any political party within the country. Crooked politicians aside (this is systemic of all countries not simply ours), we've at least made a hell of a pathway since 1994. We have a constitution that's as equal granting if not more so than any other in the world (allowing for gay rights years before the so called "civilised Western world") and an education system that, on paper, is masterfully crafted in undoing the Bantu System of the past (which, to this day, still ensures most of South Africa will never be educated or able to acquire meaningful employment). Good luck thinking the DA will do any better, they're too Eurocentric in their politics and sociology to understand the underpinnings of our problems.

We won't see a difference in our lifetime, the issues are far too great. Idiotic reasoning such as yours only permeates the racialised hegemony of the past and ensures we'll never be able to reach the goals of democracy. Why did you turn a thread on one police incident into a thread of misquotation and fictitious bullshit as a means to bash South Africa? If it's that far down the gutter, why do you stay? Seriously, if you hate the country fuck off, we don't need you.

Stating "White guilt" as an excuse to not deal with the fact that you and I still benefit from Apartheid is equally offensive. We still imbibe the divide within our country and the only way to undo it is to understand how we do so. We all need our own TRCs (no matter our age). Look at myself, as an example. I'm a lower middle-class White South African from, perhaps, the poorest White neighbourhood in the city (one of the three majors, btw). Yet I was born with running water and a secured roof over my head that shelters me from heavy rains and winds. I can claim I never benefited from Apartheid because I'm not what you'd associate that image to be (upper middle-class) yet how illogical is that statement? How much richer am I than MOST Blacks who still have nothing? They don't have secured housing let alone the opportunity to afford any education as both of us do.

Originally Posted by Gandhi View Post
You cannot instantly say South Africa is an "un-advanced" country because of this incident.Police do much worse in America and in the west and I think we can all agree that America and the west are pretty advanced.This entire idea that all of Africa is the "uncivilized part of the world" is so inaccurate,Northern Africa is on its feet and yes South Africa is somewhat similar to Australia I'm serious though it does have more original South Africans "meaning black people".

It'd be similar to labeling the entire country of America purely because when I hear of them it's due to some Black kid who was shot by a Neighbourhood Watch member for merely walking down the street.

Some of the other "facts" about my country are also illogical and fantasised. This "great exodus" of the minority races is laughable. The racial mixture of the country is still basically the same. It's just now, unlike before, Blacks are allowed into the cities. Of fucking course they'll now look the majority because they fucking are (close on 70% of the population, I might add). Seemingly Yamada_Taro is either not a South African OR what most call themselves a White "realist" (read: racist) who still insists the past was the good old days and we've gone backwards since electing a democracy. My money is on the latter, which is depressing.

Is the country fucked up? Yeah, but at least the government aren't blatantly murdering people en masse as the Apartheid system did. The rising unemployment rate is also due to Blacks never being considered workable citizens in Apartheid (to circumvent their ability to fall within occupational health and safety regulations and worker's rights - no right to unions, fair pay or even safe working environments). Of course now that they fall within the parameters will our numbers rise. Another reason is that since democracy we've shut down Asbestos mining (something outlawed decades ago in other countries - and of which we were the greatest exporter of) and our labour legislations aren't as lax as they once were forcing humane working environments. Because of that, multinational corporations have sought out other countries with limited labour regulations to ensure a continuation of cheaper labour and higher profits. That's how they work and is not the result of a government's mistake.

As for an increase in crime? Lets jut gloss over how the National Party corrupted police data and censored/re-wrote journalism to ensure continual political victories. Of course removing the security-effect of racial segregation (anyone out of place within the neighbourhood is killed/imprisoned) and allowing homogenity within economic brackets will see a rise in theft. A basic understanding of crimonology would infinitely highlight the dangers we faced in doing so. Yet what should we do? Refuse a democracy? Let's get it straight, Blacks are not inherently criminal. The fact they are A) a majority and B) most victimised by the economic divide is more the reason as to explaining this. I'm not excusing criminals, I am, however, blaming Apartheid. As for murder and violent crime? Yeah, let's not even act as if that's increased.

Here's the story with regards to that video:
*Mida Marcia parks on the wrong side of the road, blocking traffic and apparently hooting to attract people needing a Taxi.

*2 Officers arrive (how long Marcia has been blocking traffic is not said) and ask him to move, apparently a fight breaks out and the one constable is beaten and disarmed of his firearm, the second constable then disarms Marcia and they try to arrest him. Calling for backup

*Backup arrives with Marcia still struggling with the first two, by now a crowd has gathered. The taxi is impounded.

*3-5 Officers struggle to get Marcia into the Van. Multiple reports say the police beat him here, though it's hard to tell -seems he does get kicked, but an Officer also goes down, or fumbles, for a second assisted up by a bystander.

*They get him to the van and handcuff him, to the rail on the inside, (whether they handcuffed him while he was still outside, or somehow bailed/slid out is not said) and the one officer slams the back door into his head, whether by accident (or by him falling out) I can't say, but you'd think there'd be clearer vids of it, considering all those people filming.

*Large policeman tries to get Marcia into the Van, talking to him while pointing at the van's interior, bending his legs and trying to pick him up while the crowd shouts at Marcia and the other police stand around

*Van reverses, 2 officers grab the back in reaction while another stops the driver directly. Why the driver does what he does hasn't been explained.

*It's decided to carry him, while leaving him handcuffed, might have worked except Van goes faster then officers and they drop him, Van stops, Police pick him up again, then for some reason, Van driver shoots off again, dragging Marcia.
The police in question have all been arrested and will be sentenced on murder charges.

It isn't as if he was innocent - so let's get that out of the way. He blatantly refused to get into the van. Did they act out of duty? Sure, and I despise the police in question for that but just because this is blown out of proportion and the fact that the Oscar Pistorius case had such severe fuck-ups doesn't necessitate a blanketing judgment over the entire country.

Our police force are vastly under-equipped and that is something I'll concede - if they had tasers or pepper spray perhaps this could have gone diffrently. It is a huge issue. Another issue is the mob justice of many citizens (across all races). Note how a lot of the crowd were cheering the police on - yet only a few were shouting "stop! We're filming this". We were a violent nation due to the foundations of Apartheid and a lot still needs to be worked on as a whole. It'll take generations to undo what's been created and to mitigate the racist, defeatist mindsets that permeate through ex-pats and current citizens. I might sound very repeated in that but I cannot stress it enough.

Edit: I'm somewhat glad there are a few posters in this thread that aren't complete and utter idiots.

Last edited by Rah; 03-02-2013 at 08:43 AM.
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