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Old 09-15-2012, 06:30 PM   #41 (permalink)
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Default Re: Innocence of Muslims

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Originally Posted by Redead View Post
It wasnt really sections, ive honestly never met a egyptian who liked mubarak. The man was less popular than cancer.

The only reason he couldnt be eliminated was his strong US support, iron controls over the egyptian secret service and the army, and the fact the muslim brotherhood are seen as too extreme by many.
When the uprising started initially, the film crews found several citizens who were more vocal in support of him, of course that evaporated by the midway point.

I'm at the midway point between Rated R & yourself, although he seems to lack some of the essential facts.

What the U.S. did in Egypt at the outset is what any large nation does to build allies within an area where they have little influence, just look at Russia or China. These superpowers find a country in an area that would most likely prove agreeable, provide aid (In the forms I've mentioned previously) & in return they gain a foothold in that area. The idea of course being that you can use that country as a stepping stone to either bringing others into the fold or providing surveillance / intelligence on dangerous rogue elements.

Fact of the matter is Egypt wasn't in a good place before the U.S. got involved initially, which is why that government proved so malleable in the first place to aid. They needed what we offered s they tried to dredge themselves up, in the hopes of making their country a major player in the region. The U.S. wanted to an ally in a region that has always been hostile to Western interests. The motives were fine, it's the character of those involved that brought it to it's current impasse. You cannot predict how these people will conduct themselves & consequently their countres 5, 10, 30 years down the road.

Fact of the matter is, the established superpowers do the same thing around the globe on a regular basis. Unfortunately for the U.S., being on center stage means your fuck ups are highlighted as well & our last few strokes have turned out to be major fuck ups.
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Old 09-15-2012, 06:32 PM   #42 (permalink)
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Default Re: Innocence of Muslims

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Originally Posted by Redead View Post
It wasnt really sections, ive honestly never met a egyptian who liked mubarak. The man was less popular than cancer.

The only reason he couldnt be eliminated was his strong US support, iron controls over the egyptian secret service and the army, and the fact the muslim brotherhood are seen as too extreme by many.
I'm actually Egyptian, although I grew up in Canada, I would still follow Egyptian politics and news, and I HATED him.

When the Egyptian revolts happen a year ago, I was happy, but here we are a year and a half later and not much has changed, in fact it might get worse with the Muslim Brotherhood in charge.

Politics and Religion DO NOT FUCKING MIX!!!
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Old 09-15-2012, 06:34 PM   #43 (permalink)
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Default Re: Innocence of Muslims

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Originally Posted by Ratedr4life View Post
These "crazy Muslims" and I say crazy because it's not all Muslims, more like 5% of them that are terrorists, believe they are on this "Jihad" this holy war against the western world. Now I don't know what their end game is, do they want to convert the US to Islam? I don't get it, and frankly it's stupid, you are not going to win. Live in your country follow your religion and be happy, but don't cry out to the world when your own country is fucked up, I'm talking about Iraq, Iran, Egypt, Libya. Then when countries like the US, Canada, France, Britain try to help you, you lash out at them for "invading" your country and trying to "westernize" your culture, you start protesting them, throwing grenades at forces. NO! we are trying to help you.
Here is the problem: even before the wars in the 21st century in these regions the US had hundreds of military bases surrounding the area and were helping to prop up dictators in these countries. You can look that up yourself. The truth is you cannot force change. Whether you want to believe that the US and other western countries such as my own (UK) are trying to help countries like Iraq, Iran etc. the official story is that we are doing this in order to promote democracy in the middle east in order to make and sustain peace. This is trying to be done by force, in Iraq, in Afghanistan, in Iran etc. whether it be bombing their countries and invading their countries or by stuff like imposing trade sanctions.

With knowledge that their dictators were propped up by the US, that the United States has military bases around and now their country being invaded its little wonder that there is this fixed view that there is some sort of Jiihad going on. Especially if you throw religion into the mix like it has done in the past and has done recently. You don't understand that changing to a system like democracy is a huge shift for these countries and the fact this is seeing to be (and in some cases is being) done by force and the fact that democracy is a western political system suggests that its little wonder they feel like they are being "westernised". It would be a different story if this was being done by diplomacy alone or if western countries just kept out of their affairs altogether but is obviously not the case.

Think of it this way: what if you lived in a country where your political system is seen as oppressive to the outside world but you are content with how you are living. Then an outside country comes in, bombs your country, invades it, sets up military bases in the area to secure the country so you can't rebel back and then you are being forced to negotiate into a political system that is foreign to you and feels like they are imposing their political system on to your country. That is how some Arab's and Muslim's feel right now.

Don't get me wrong, I don't condone their actions either. Both sides are in the wrong and what people did in Libya, Egypt etc. to US Embassy's were completely wrong. But to have this attitude like people in them countries should be grateful when their lives have completely changed and they feel threatened because of what the US and western countries have done is not understanding how some of those people feel. No one likes forced change.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratedr4life View Post
Its like the scrawny kid at school picking on the biggest strongest and toughest kid. The big kid doesn't want to beat the shit out of the smaller kid, because he is above that, but when the little kid pushes the right buttons, he's gonna get his ass kicked. Then he makes the big kid out as the bad guy becasue he is picking on the small guy, so that he can get support from other small guys.
That's such a simplistic view of things. What about Iraq? A country that hadn't attacked the US since the Kuwait war and was wrongly invaded to find weapons of mass destruction that weren't even there which the policy has now been changed to one of promoting democracy in the country? Yes there is the added element of Saddam Hussein and I'm sure most of the country were glad he was kicked out and killed after the atrocities he committed. But I'm also sure many aren't happy that it was America and its western allies who invaded and stayed there in military bases occupying the country.

Iran has not made one nuclear weapon yet sanctions which could be justified as acts of war are being placed on them which directly effects the citizens of the country. In the 1960's Reagan talked to the Soviet's when the US had thousands of nuclear weapons that could potentially could have been launched at them. Yet the US government are so paranoid about Iran potentially getting a hold of a single nuclear weapon. So instead of treating them on equal terms the US is deciding to try and bully its way for Iran to not have a nuclear weapon. Have you ever stopped to think that maybe Iran wants one...I don't know, to feel protected?


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Originally Posted by Ratedr4life View Post
Islam is a beautiful religion, that I've left, but these idiots have turned it into something that is associated with terrorism and have twisted the words to fit their agenda. It sucks that many of the Arab youth are easily brainwashed.
This I can 100% agree with. But this applies to all religions and not just Islam. It just so happens Islam is the most violent right now.
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Old 09-15-2012, 06:37 PM   #44 (permalink)
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Default Re: Innocence of Muslims

The only reason the muslim brotherhood got elected was the man running against Morsi had been part of the old regime (not to mention an american ally) and the people were terrified of a return to that

Thats the greatest flaw of democracy. When youre stuck between a rock and a hard place. When you vote for someone for no other reason other than the fact that hes the opposite of the other candidate.

Morsi was not the best candidate, not even slightly. The right man was a moderate who had a ton of support, unfortunately in the pre elections, people usually tend to vote for the most polarising candidate, so the moderate got screwed. Even right now, looking at America I know for a fact a candidate in the middle stands no chance. Hence Romney and Obama

However, the egyptian people made their choice. This is their democracy, I think we should respect it. Because thats what demoracy is about. Letting people choose on their own, not sticking a gun to their head when they dont vote for the guy you want
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Old 09-15-2012, 06:44 PM   #45 (permalink)
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Default Re: Innocence of Muslims

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Originally Posted by Cliffy Byro View Post
somebody gets it

this is purely an anti-western thing manifesting.

Westernised Muslims are clued up, they get it. These cretins in the middle east don't get it.

The conduct of egyptian leadership has been shamefull.
It's not even a matter of being westernized or not, it's a matter of havin a proper understanding of Islam. There a photo online of a Libyan guy condemning the terrorist attacks.
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Old 09-15-2012, 06:45 PM   #46 (permalink)
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Default Re: Innocence of Muslims

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Originally Posted by Crusade View Post
Here is the problem: even before the wars in the 21st century in these regions the US had hundreds of military bases surrounding the area and were helping to prop up dictators in these countries. You can look that up yourself. The truth is you cannot force change. Whether you want to believe that the US and other western countries such as my own (UK) are trying to help countries like Iraq, Iran etc. the official story is that we are doing this in order to promote democracy in the middle east in order to make and sustain peace. This is trying to be done by force, in Iraq, in Afghanistan, in Iran etc. whether it be bombing their countries and invading their countries or by stuff like imposing trade sanctions.

With knowledge that their dictators were propped up by the US, that the United States has military bases around and now their country being invaded its little wonder that there is this fixed view that there is some sort of Jiihad going on. Especially if you throw religion into the mix like it has done in the past and has done recently. You don't understand that changing to a system like democracy is a huge shift for these countries and the fact this is seeing to be (and in some cases is being) done by force and the fact that democracy is a western political system suggests that its little wonder they feel like they are being "westernised". It would be a different story if this was being done by diplomacy alone or if western countries just kept out of their affairs altogether but is obviously not the case.

Think of it this way: what if you lived in a country where your political system is seen as oppressive to the outside world but you are content with how you are living. Then an outside country comes in, bombs your country, invades it, sets up military bases in the area to secure the country so you can't rebel back and then you are being forced to negotiate into a political system that is foreign to you and feels like they are imposing their political system on to your country. That is how some Arab's and Muslim's feel right now.

Don't get me wrong, I don't condone their actions either. Both sides are in the wrong and what people did in Libya, Egypt etc. to US Embassy's were completely wrong. But to have this attitude like people in them countries should be grateful when their lives have completely changed and they feel threatened because of what the US and western countries have done is not understanding how some of those people feel. No one likes forced change.



That's such a simplistic view of things. What about Iraq? A country that hadn't attacked the US since the Kuwait war and was wrongly invaded to find weapons of mass destruction that weren't even there which the policy has now been changed to one of promoting democracy in the country? Yes there is the added element of Saddam Hussein and I'm sure most of the country were glad he was kicked out and killed after the atrocities he committed. But I'm also sure many aren't happy that it was America and its western allies who invaded and stayed there in military bases occupying the country.

Iran has not made one nuclear weapon yet sanctions which could be justified as acts of war are being placed on them which directly effects the citizens of the country. In the 1960's Reagan talked to the Soviet's when the US had thousands of nuclear weapons that could potentially could have been launched at them. Yet the US government are so paranoid about Iran potentially getting a hold of a single nuclear weapon. So instead of treating them on equal terms the US is deciding to try and bully its way for Iran to not have a nuclear weapon. Have you ever stopped to think that maybe Iran wants one...I don't know, to feel protected?




This I can 100% agree with. But this applies to all religions and not just Islam. It just so happens Islam is the most violent right now.
You bring a lot of good points, I wouldn't want a country to come into Canada and try to change things, but then again, Canada is a highly developed peaceful country, yes we have murders and crime but very minimal in comparison.

I'm not going to come on here and pretend I know all the history, all the politics behind everything, I don't, and I don't need to, I just use common sense to look at the situation.

I'd actually like the US to just leave every Arab country they are in, and let them fend for themselves.....in a few months time there would be an outcry from around the world that the US should intervene and help these countries, only to go in and have their people revolt against US forces.

It's a vicious cycle unfortunately.
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Old 09-15-2012, 06:52 PM   #47 (permalink)
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Default Re: Innocence of Muslims

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Originally Posted by Ratedr4life View Post
You bring a lot of good points, I wouldn't want a country to come into Canada and try to change things, but then again, Canada is a highly developed peaceful country, yes we have murders and crime but very minimal in comparison.

I'm not going to come on here and pretend I know all the history, all the politics behind everything, I don't, and I don't need to, I just use common sense to look at the situation.

I'd actually like the US to just leave every Arab country they are in, and let them fend for themselves.....in a few months time there would be an outcry from around the world that the US should intervene and help these countries, only to go in and have their people revolt against US forces.

It's a vicious cycle unfortunately.


*Ahem*

Thing is, we don't help any country without wanting something in return, which makes sense when you're one country helping out another in this socioeconomic climate. It would be the same if China or Russia stepped in to offer aid.

Altruism between nations, especially Middle Eastern nations, is a thing of the distant past.
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Old 09-15-2012, 06:52 PM   #48 (permalink)
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Default Re: Innocence of Muslims

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Originally Posted by Ratedr4life View Post
You bring a lot of good points, I wouldn't want a country to come into Canada and try to change things, but then again, Canada is a highly developed peaceful country, yes we have murders and crime but very minimal in comparison.

I'm not going to come on here and pretend I know all the history, all the politics behind everything, I don't, and I don't need to, I just use common sense to look at the situation.

I'd actually like the US to just leave every Arab country they are in, and let them fend for themselves.....in a few months time there would be an outcry from around the world that the US should intervene and help these countries, only to go in and have their people revolt against US forces.

It's a vicious cycle unfortunately.
It's a messed up situation, if you do your damned and if you don't your damned as well. One thing I'd say is that there are a lot of countries which are in messed up situations because they are stricken with war or under horrible dictatorships yet no one could give a fuck because they aren't reported. No one would give a shit if these Arab countries were never reported on either. Its only because we have vested interests in those countries and because of the global phenonmenon (or scare mongering) known as Terrorism has become such a big issue.

I just look at it from a realistic standpoint that you aren't always going to be welcomed if you try and help them regardless of what good intentions there may be and you are going to bankrupt the country by trying to help every messed country round the world so its best to have a non interventionist policy (plus I'm a pacifist anyway and don't believe in the slogan "in order to bring peace there must be war" as it hasn't worked for the past 4000 or so years.)
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Old 09-15-2012, 06:53 PM   #49 (permalink)
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Default Re: Innocence of Muslims

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Originally Posted by #Mark View Post
I'm american and I can see why the middle east hates America. Wouldn't you if there were drones dropping like flies in your country? innocent civilians and families are being killed senselessly for no reason at all. Hell, Obama even ordered the killing of two American muslims this past year without any trial. One was a 16 year old boy who was killed more or less because of who his father was (his father being the other man ordered killed, they called him a fanatic because he used to travel the globe preaching religious ideals). An article I read linked the kids facebook page and he was no different than any american teenager. It's quite sad really.
The only thing thing Anwar Al Awlaki did is tell it like it is. The death of one civilian in New york does not justify the death of one civilian in the middle east and vice versa.

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Old 09-15-2012, 07:00 PM   #50 (permalink)
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Default Re: Innocence of Muslims

If a Muslim was the face of the Holocaust people would've blamed it on all Muslims.
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