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The right to have guns? Something that has always baffled me.

9K views 198 replies 38 participants last post by  Reaper 
#1 ·


*** Please read through before jumping the gun (no pun intended) and replying, so you guys can get a good understanding of where this thread is coming from ***

Ok guys, this is something that's baffled me for a while. You have to remember that I'm in the UK and people are from different places too so we need to have this conversation with a respectable vibe as I know it can be a bit controversial but I'm sure we're all adult enough to be able to do this.

I was just reading about the shooting in Cincinnati on here and every time I read and hear about these things it just makes me think about this whole gun law thing that the US have.

For me I've never understood the need of it. I hear about these things a LOT in the US and sure the US is a bigger place (hence more crime) but it's always in the US where I hear these things more often than not and it does make me think 'Well if there wasn't any access to guns there would obviously be less killings'. People always say things like 'Yeah but if someone wants to get a gun they can' but I don't personally buy that because say for example if I wanted to go out and get a gun and shoot someone, I would have NO chance, therefore that person wouldn't be shot and killed. In the US people can go into a local store and get a gun so easily and go out and shoot someone, it really baffles me as to why this is in play.

No other country in the world (that I know of) has this easy access to guns and when you think about those places there is less killings with guns too. Australia, UK, Europe etc... and if people say 'Well people can kill people in other ways' I also can't really buy because it's much easier to kill someone with a gun than it is say with a knife where that person who is stabbed is more likely to survive or fight someone off than someone who has been straight shot. It's much harder to stab someone than it is to shoot someone which can be done so quick and from a distance too, it's awful.

I just think about it from this perspective. Most people do things irrationally, say like if someone is angry with an ex or jealous or something and they're not thinking straight. At least here it's so hard to get a gun that by the time I did (which I couldn't do anyway) I'd have calmed down and would have thought more rationally and saved myself from shooting someone and getting myself in trouble too. Double bonus there (not that I would even think of this but in theory). Then things such as crazed fans such as this Christina Grimmie situation that happened recently, that NEVER happens here in the UK and why, because these idiots can't just go out and get a gun and shoot someone. I really don't see the benefit of having guns what so ever.

Also, the other question that comes to mind for me is why does the US need guns so badly? What is so different about the US that you need to have a gun to protect yourself? I definitely don't and neither do people in other countries so why does the US need this so much? (again, these are things I'm genuinely interested to hear and understand).

Is that right really just down to having a right? Is that worth people's lives just for the sake of having a right to own a gun?, this is what I don't get.

Also the other thing as well is suicides too, now I know people can do this in various ways but this still to me seems like the easiest and quickest way that if a gun is in a house the temptation to someone in distress is much easier to grab the gun and pull the trigger than it is to hang themselves or whatever, which although can be done, it's not quite as easy and is a longer process to do but there which means more chance to think rationally to bare in mind too.

Then again things like accidents, I've heard of kids and babies accidentally getting the gun and pulling the trigger and killing someone. Now I know the parents should be more responsible in this sense and not have the guns easily reachable but not all of them are and of course the risk comes with this also in regards to that.

So many people lose loved one's due to idiots who can easily get hold of a gun. If I lost my mum or anyone due to this I would be completely heartbroken which is why I feel completely glad to live in a place where guns are pretty much impossible to get hold of. I'm sure you guys here would feel the same about your loved one's in that sense also.

Please bare in mind, I RESPECT people's opinions on this even if I don't agree with them. I genuinely have NO understanding or see NO beneficial reason to have a gun but remember, I'm from the UK so I don't live in the US to see it from a US perspective and I respect that. But I just find it very very hard to understand why SOME people are so adamant to the right to have guns.

When I saw this Christina Grimmie situation I saw some people in the US saying about the right to have guns and raving about it arguing with other people in the US (and other places) who felt that if there were no guns she would still be alive right now. It's definitely so much easier to kill someone with a gun and if that guy who shot her wasn't able to get one, chances are he would have been stopped and that girl would still be alive. A lovely innocent girl who lost her life for no reason leaving others completely heartbroken too. Drive by shootings too we never hear of and same with mass killings too when someone goes on a shooting spree, we never hear of. When I hear of these things it's from the US all the time. It kinda makes me think if these people who rant and rave about the right to have a gun had their mum, sister, brother or any family member/close person to them killed like this, maybe they'd change their tune about the right to have guns for people so easily.

Why do the US need to have the right to have guns when no other country in the world feel the need to have this, so why are they different?

This is something I've wondered about so much and of course, I don't live there so I could be naive to these things also. The whole need to have a gun to protect yourself just makes me think you're protecting yourself from other people who can easily get guns though. It just seems to go round in circles for me and if there were no guns then there would be less killings which is pretty obvious really.

I know in the US it's divided in regards to this whole right to have guns thing. Though I'm not sure which end of the scale is the highest but maybe you guys can shed some light :)

I love the US and it's one place I've always wanted to go, none of this puts me off though in any way shape or form as the US is my favourite country in the world that I would love to visit and it's beautiful, as are the people (I have a few friends in LA, Vegas and New Jersey) but I've just never been able to understand this whole right to have guns mentality. It makes no sense to me and all it does is allow people to easily go out and shoot people and mess up lives.

Specially when it's in cases of irrational thinking which is never good. It's scary shit.

So what are your thoughts? Can we have a nice little debate here in regards to this as I would love to know. Please keep it respectful though between each other, this is something I've been curious about for a while but always hesitated cause I know it can be a little controversial, however I'm sure we can have the conversation as adults respectfully anyway.

So thoughts, why is this right to have guns such a big thing for some people that they're so adamant about. It doesn't make any sense to me at all. People are going to have different opinions so lets keep it respectful. However I am genuinely interested to hear the various vibes in regards to this here from you guys :)

I look forward to hearing from you guys soon :)
 
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#5 ·
The gun thing is a wacky topic in the US, it's probably one of those things that's never going to appease all, there's always going to be a portion of folks pissed off. That being said there's a few reasons, which I'm sure many will strongly disagree with:

1. Self defense - Americans for a variety of reasons know that it's unlikely that a criminal is going to break into your house and try to kill you, but if it were ever to happen, your only real line of defense is having a gun. A police officer can take forever to actually arrive and in that time, anything could happen. Here's a video for example in Mexico where guns are illegal:



Horrifying stuff, the only way this guy could've legit protected himself was if he had a gun of his own. 99% of gun owners are the rational type that hope to never use it on a human being though.

2. This brings me to the second point, banning guns in America, a country that has about as many guns as it does people, is not a feasible thing. Critics suggest that much like the war on drugs, you're not going to be able to stop certain people, and in many cases you are actually making things less safe because then only the criminals will have them. Even worse, with advancements in technology, it's becoming increasingly easier for someone to literally make their own gun and it's going to just keeping getting easier from here on out. This may be why a place like Chicago, which has had very strict gun laws, has some of the worst gun violence in the country. The criminals are still able to obtain them and are now aware that most ordinary folks won't have a way to stop them. Think about it from a logical perspective though with the war on drugs, has it really worked or helped? Or has it made things worse. Many feel gun control laws would do the same here.

3. Protection from the government - sounds silly to some, but think about it from this perspective, in a place like North Korea, where Kim Jong un and has family have tortured and starved millions of people, literally, if the citizens were armed, there is a good chance that the country would be in better shape by now. Similarly in the US, I think most people are sane enough to realize that this type of scenario folding out is unlikely, but at the same token, if it ever did, a gun would be your best defense. Americans take pride in establishing their own independence from British rule and this really happened because we were armed and capable of defending ourselves.

There's other reasons like hunting, but that's not a serious reason like the ones I listed. I'm personally on the fence somewhat but leaning closer to pro gun but I do recognize that there are a lot of issues that stem from guns that negatively effect many lives. On the flip side there are many communities where "gun nuts" live that are completely safe, so I think the idea of just guns being out there isn't the whole reason why gun violence happens. It's a pretty complex topic and there's a lot of other influencing factors such as poverty, mental stability, culture, and more.
 
#14 ·
Yeah, really great post, thank you :)

Just somethings from my feelings and perspectives here what you wrote and feel free to debate with me as I'm interested in this genuinely.

1. The self defense thing. Is that because criminals have guns? We have to defend ourselves here too against criminals be it a burglary or whatever but never to the point of feeling the need to have a gun to feel safe or protect ourselves. I think that thing about someone coming into your house and murdering you is like you say, unlikely. Of course it can happen and does at times but the amount of gun crimes you hear that happen due to guns being easily accessible is way more than the event mentioned of someone coming into your house to murder you, does that make sense? :)

You're right about the police thing too. It's the same here in regards to them turning up too late.

2. Yeah, I understand that too. I suppose if guns weren't easily obtainable in the first place they wouldn't be in that position? I think that could be the same for anything that's been legal and then all of a sudden being like 'Oh should we ban it now'. It's going to be a problem and take time to eradicate it. I understand that completely. I do understand too because if guns were banned now there would be criminals still with guns you can no longer protect yourself from. So I get that. It's a complete catch 22 really. Do you think guns being legal in the first place was a mistake? :)

That makes a lot of sense about point 2 I think, it's just being able to eradicate them isn't it in a safe way which seems impossible now due to them being legal for so long, which is where I think the mistake was (the law in the first place). I understand that completely!! :)

3. I can understand the government thing too. That can happen to any of us and is unlikely. Although I don't think that's enough to justify guns being obtainable (I see more negatives than anything if I'm honest) because it is incredibly unlikely and if it did happen, well I think the world would stick together in this day and age now. As silly as it seems but with social media and the internet we're now more powerful in the public with our voices and hearing about things happen. One thing I can say is the UK and the US, as citizens seem very close. We tend to have the same mindset on most things (give and take the gun crime thing) but we do. I feel that the UK and US people are very close if I'm honest and like I say, I have friends in the US and they are some of my absolute favourite people and are of the kindest nature too. I think we're very similar in regards to the public thing but obviously I understand like in point 2 about this whole problem with guns being taken away all of a sudden now that it's actually been there for so long. Hence why I think the law in the first place was a mistake long term.

Yeah, the hunting thing is a completely different story really. Honestly, I'm not very favourable of hunting but I eat meat which is like when vegans say it's part of the problem. I eat meat but I don't agree with killing animals basically is their argument. I don't judge people on that though, I know Brock, Shawn and Stone Cold all do the hunting thing. It's just not something I really get into that much, I couldn't do it personally that's all :)

Great post, I really appreciate that and that's nice too how it's been respectful. That's all I want here yet I am genuinely interested. Respect people's opinions and feelings yet debate different things cause you know what, when we listen to each other with the intent to listen and not just reply, we can learn a lot of things and that's what it's about for me. I'll listen and have a think, try see it from their perspective then give my feelings whether it's in agreement, understanding etc.. I think it's nice we can do that but I have hesitated about this a while because like I say (and everything I wrote in the OP) I see more bad than good with guns and don't see any benefit at all.

Apart from what you mentioned about if guns were all of a sudden taken away they'd still be out there in the hands of the criminals meaning you can't protect yourself until that's completely gone, which wouldn't be for a while, which would mean more innocent lives lost cause of this, so I understand completely. I just feel it was a mistake having the law in the first place that's caused the problem that's lead to this situation.

But again, thank you for that, I really appreciate that response a lot!!! :)

You wont ever understand because you don't come from a country that allows you to have firearms.

I hate that we see posts like this every time a criminal does a shooting. Most people that have firearms in the US are law abiding citizens that have them for protection and hunting removing guns from these people is not going to solve anything criminals will still get the guns if they want them. You also have cities like Chicago that have some of the strictest gun laws in the country and violent crime and murders are still on the rise yet because of the gun laws citizens can't protect themselves.

The UK has one of the highest Knife crime statistics in the world, should we ban knives?
But again, it's much easier to fight someone off with a knife or an attack from a knife than it is from a gun. The chances of survival from someone being shot by a gun and attacked by a knife is completely different. And yes, you are absolutely right. Knife crime really is a problem. I think the knife comparison is a silly excuse really to say guns still should be legal.

The US, as far as I'm aware are the only country in the world who feel the need to have guns. Why is this not a case elsewhere? I don't feel the need to have a gun and I'm so glad too. I don't need to protect myself from other people who have guns cause other people don't have them either. Anything else protection wise doesn't need a gun to shoot and kill someone. Not here anyway, I'm never gonna be in a position to have to kill someone to protect myself because no one is going to run in with a gun.

If they did with a knife, I can fight them off. They have to get near me with a knife. You could kill someone with a rock to the head, it's completely different with a gun. Completely which can be done from a distance too. Knife crime doesn't justify the reason to have a gun in my opinion, not even close.

And I've openly said that I understand I'm not from the US so have a different perspective hence wondering about this. Yet I do find a lot of people in the US have these feelings too. I still haven't personally seen any justification in regards to where guns benefit more so over the negatives of guns. None. The best I've seen is 'Protection' but we don't feel the need to have guns in our country for protection though as @Rick_James mentioned above, I think this is where the catch 22 of why the need to have a gun does come into play there and I get that.

Also, you can't say 'You won't ever understand' to me or anyone really cause how do you know? And if we don't have these conversations then how can we understand? If I don't agree I'll say so and that's not always due to lack of understanding, but if I do agree I will also say so, which again @Rick_James has actually given me a perspective of why it would be a problem to take away the guns from you now and I understand that. It's a very difficult situation and a catch 22 I feel. As I say above, I think this is because the fact they were so obtainable in the first place is what's caused this situation and that's where I think the decision was wrong really. Other countries don't have this problem and that's a good thing.

These violent crimes and murders in Chicago are they due to gun involvement from the criminals? Because there is no crime here in the UK where a gun is needed to protect ourselves. Even knife crime which although is and has been a problem. You don't really hear of it that much. I hear more about gun crimes in the US than I do knife crimes in the UK and I'm not even in the US. I don't hear of that many knife crimes AT ALL if I'm completely honest with you and that's for real!! YES I get the US is a bigger place as I've already explained but honestly, I hear more upset, hurt and innocent lives being lost than I do of anything else, maybe that's what's reported and all the other side of things aren't but I've never heard of a report or news story that's been 'Someone killed someone and protected themselves'. It's always the other way round.

More people die from being shot by a gun than they do being stabbed by a knife. None of it should happen of course, but that's absolutely the case. You're probably gonna die being shot by a gun, not so much being stabbed by a knife and that doesn't just save your life it saves your loved one's too the pain. I'd rather my brother get stabbed by a knife than shot by a gun basically. Of course I'd rather none but that makes complete sense that's why this knife Vs gun thing doesn't really justify the fact that guns should be easily obtainable to people. Guns are way worse and more lives are lost with a gun attack than they are a knife attack.

I think @Rick_James explained really great about the problem with the protection thing and taking away guns now for you in point two above in his post. I get that and understand that completely but I do feel that this situation is there because you've got the problem of guns being so obtainable over the years that if they were took away now you'd have these criminals still with guns and you guys not being able to protect yourselves, I understand that completely which is probably why you feel you need to have guns to protect yourself yet we don't feel the need to go to that extreme for protection.

You're right, I don't get it in regards to this whole gun thing (I do from what @Rick_James has mentioned though now) but as mentioned above that's my feelings on it and like I say, I respect yours as we are all different people with different opinions which all should be respected.

And that's what I want with this conversation, which I'm sure we can do.
 
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#3 ·
I think one thing to keep in mind is that there is no way that it will ever be possible to get rid of all the guns in America. So when people say, "If you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns", they are absolutely correct. The cat is already out of the bag, and it has been confirmed to be a tiger. You can't put it back in anymore. For many people, like myself, it is not actually a "love" of guns as much as a realization that individuals need to retain the right to protect themselves from other criminal elements who themselves are potentially carrying firearms. And for the record I myself do not own any guns.

I hope this thread does stay civil, because this can be a good conversation that actually needs to be had.
 
#8 ·
I think one thing to keep in mind is that there is no way that it will ever be possible to get rid of all the guns in America.
I don't think this is completely true. Sure, it is a massive task but if step 1 you announce the process to start outlawing them in full. It might even be a 100 year process that you announce but it's a beginning.

Then the first real action that you take is to ban the making of guns. Next step, you ask people to hand-in any guns that they have (not mandatory at first, starting on a voluntary basis.) I'm not sure what the process is like of owning a gun, if you need paperwork? If so I would make it illegal to inherit a gun. Make it law that when somebody dies, the guns will go over to the state to be destroyed.

Then you massively increase the amount of punishment for any crime which involves a gun and start to put in place "mandatory" turning over of guns for everybody. Now if anyone has a gun, they're in a huge breech of the law. Over the course of the next 100 years as gun owners die out we'll see pst guns handed over or destroyed.

Sure, it's not a perfect plan and there will be people left with guns (but there are tons of guns in the UK and you seldom here of anyone getting shot here) but it's a bare bones plan that if given time and proper thought, could be executed to drastically lower the number of guns in circulation and save 1000s of lives each year.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying this would definitely work but it's a case of shovelling shit. The more you shovel away, the less there is left.
 
#6 ·
You have to remember that I'm in the UK
You wont ever understand because you don't come from a country that allows you to have firearms.

I hate that we see posts like this every time a criminal does a shooting. Most people that have firearms in the US are law abiding citizens that have them for protection and hunting removing guns from these people is not going to solve anything criminals will still get the guns if they want them. You also have cities like Chicago that have some of the strictest gun laws in the country and violent crime and murders are still on the rise yet because of the gun laws citizens can't protect themselves.

The UK has one of the highest Knife crime statistics in the world, should we ban knives?
 
#7 ·
You wont ever understand because you don't come from a country that allows you to have firearms.

I hate that we see posts like this every time a criminal does a shooting. Most people that have firearms in the US are law abiding citizens that have them for protection and hunting removing guns from these people is not going to solve anything criminals will still get the guns if they want them. You also have cities like Chicago that have some of the strictest gun laws in the country and violent crime and murders are still on the rise yet because of the gun laws citizens can't protect themselves.

The UK has one of the highest Knife crime statistics in the world, should we ban knives?
Same goes for Muslims and anti-extremism... but the hate for Muslims won't stop on this board. The mentally retarded here still think ALL Muslims are extremists.
 
#4 ·
Yeah, dogs are a great deterrent. Specially for burglars or anyone coming into your home to do harm. Dogs are loyal and very intelligent. We've got one also, she's not a big dog or anything but she barks if someone is up to something and that pushes them away. Also if we say to her 'No' or it's ok when someone comes she doesn't know she is fine. She doesn't attack or growl, she's really good and people love her. She's very people friendly but knows when someone who's not wanted or shouldn't be around to scare them off.

That I can understand for protection and at least no one gets killed and they usually leave also. Unless of course your dog does literally eat them haha :)

I think one thing to keep in mind is that there is no way that it will ever be possible to get rid of all the guns in America. So when people say, "If you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns", they are absolutely correct. The cat is already out of the bag, and it has been confirmed to be a tiger. You can't put it back in anymore. For many people, like myself, it is not actually a "love" of guns as much as a realization that individuals need to retain the right to protect themselves from other criminal elements who themselves are potentially carrying firearms. And for the record I myself do not own any guns.

I hope this thread does stay civil, because this can be a good conversation that actually needs to be had.
I understand. But at least it would be minimised right? And eventually slowly but surely over time this would come less and less with the guns in America? Does that make sense? :)

I'm sure people can keep this civil and respectable. I think most people here are capable of that here. I've wanted to have this conversation so many times before here out of genuine interest but always hesitated for that reason. However if people don't keep it respectable. That's on them so I'm sure they can do :)

Out of interest, I know you won't know exact figures but are more people in the US against the right to have guns than they are for this?

Thanks for your responses :)
 
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#32 ·
Same. I want to hear things from people's different perspectives and take them on board. If I agree with them or can see some understanding I may not have had before, then I'll say so. If not, I'll also say so but I do think we can keep it respectable here, most of us anyway haha.

Those who don't just ignore them and continue the conversation with those who do.
 
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#127 · (Edited)
I'm an Irish citizen so I've never really been around guns growing up aside from accompanying my grandfather as a child when he went shooting pheasants. It's not an issue I have a particularly strong stance on, nor an educated opinion on. I'm undecided on the issue, mainly because I haven't set aside enough time to give both sides of the argument a fair hearing.

On one hand, there's no denying that population-wise, the US has a massively disproportionate rate of gun crime. On the other hand, the bulk of my political foundation is rooted in conservatism and I'd be extremely hesitant to infringe on constitutional rights for the sake of a short-term solution to a problem.

I've found that the pro-Second Amendment people tend to have the more nuanced arguments and rely on strawman a lot less, but that could well be because I consume more right-wing media than left-wing, so I haven't heard a fleshed out argument against guns. Whatever the reality of the situation is, I can't really take a firm stance either way.
 
#139 ·
I tell you one thing I have learned from this thread is that most people who want to have the gun laws aren't crazy bat shit people who want guns because they love them and all that stuff but more so because of the protection they feel they need that if they were taken away this would take away a lot of their security due to the situation they are currently in from guns being around and not so easily eradicated now. All I saw from this previously was things on social media such as when the Christina Grimmie situation happened I remember seeing some guys, I think they were ******** from what I can gather however they were randomly jumping into people's conversations and being quite rude really to be honest. When asked the genuine question 'Do you not think that this girl would be still alive if guns weren't so easy to get hold of' or 'What about this girls life that's been lost, family members etc..' all they could do was insult and swear and give the whole 'But I have the right to have a gun' as if that was more important than the girl who lost her life and the people around her who were hurting from this, they wouldn't even explain anything other than the fact they wanted to have a gun because they have a right and that was their only reason, despite this innocent girl was shot by a crazed fan who so easily was able to get a gun and shoot her. They were quite arrogant to be honest yet you guys here who have spoke on this have all explained genuinely and respectfully and although I don't fully agree with it, I can understand a lot more from this thread because it has been explained better and not rude either from anyone and I do get the reasoning behind how people feel in regards to this and having their guns taken away.

I know I hesitated about this thread for a while simply because of what I saw previously on social media where people couldn't have respectable conversations without being insulted or listening to each side of the coin from different people's feelings and perspectives. Here that's been done nicely and I really appreciate you guys who have done this and contributed here.

I don't think I'll ever agree with having guns in my whole life but I can and do understand that the situation here is so different to what is expected and unless you talk about it, you don't know and you're not expected to know either. I do understand more so the problem it causes if they are taken away as it's really not as black and white as you initially think and it's really not that easy to do either. The problem is just too deep basically.

It is like I say, I would love those who feel the need to have a gun for whatever reason (genuine reason) to live a day, week, month or whatever in a completely different environment and have them see and feel the difference. This is what I mean about how I feel so lucky really as we have no danger like this and no one I know has ever had the need to have a gun or has been involved or lost people through guns. We don't even think about guns as even family members from past generations there has been none of this and that's a good thing. But again, that's not dismissing the people who feel differently because I understand this comes from a completely different environment and reasoning to having a gun and maybe if I lived there too. I would want a gun also, for my own protection. Luckily, I don't need that and we are exactly that, lucky.

I'm really glad I've done this thread to be honest and I'm really grateful to all those who have added some input. Again, I'll never agree with having guns simply because they cause more harm than good as far as I'm concerned BUT I understand the circumstances now and people who feel opposite to me as to WHY they want to have a gun to protect themselves more than I did before due to how it would be if they were just randomly banned because of it already being so ingrained in society in places with guns being all over and I get that now, more than I did previously.

I just hope there does come a day when people who feel the need to have a gun (no matter where in the world they are) don't have to feel that way ever again and can feel that freedom really of not living in fear like that cause it's really not good but I really do respect all people's thoughts and vibes here and I can understand it completely now from both sides of the coin. There's more to it than what people think really is what I'm trying to say. It's just not often this is showcased and this is why it's so misunderstood as many don't even explain they just fire back to argue and that gets people no where. It just puts everyone on the defence as they feel attacked when discussions aren't done.

Thanks to all who have kindly added their input, I'm really grateful for it and it's been very insightful :)
 
#80 · (Edited)
@Simpsons Modern Life In case this gets lost in the shuffle here :lol

I think as a whole, we would be okay as a country if we didn't have firearms or guns on the market and easy to be purchase. However, given how big a part of our history firearms are, how many people are still big on the 2nd Amendment, and how there is still a plethora of guns and firearms out there, getting rid of them entirely really doesn't feel like a feasible scenario to me. Even moderating gun sales and making them more difficult to obtain would be difficult, because that would only work for responsible gun owners more than anything. As long as there are a wide array of guns in the county, criminals will be able to get their hands on them somehow.

As for my own personal stance on gun ownership, I don't have a huge problem with them. If people want to own a small pistol or something else small to act as a defensive measure, then that is perfectly fine. Carrying a gun like that can really help one feel more protected. I also understand having hunting rifles and other firearms in relation to hunting, as hunting is fairly important in certain sections of the country. I know that the southern US suffers from a wild boar invasive species which can damage native plants and fauna, and generally cause a ton of damage. They've allowed open hunting on these animals, which is a good thing because it benefits both the hunters themselves as well as the ecosystem in which the wild boar resides.
 
#94 ·
@Simpsons_Modern_Life In case this gets lost in the shuffle here :lol

I think as a whole, we would be okay as a country if we didn't have firearms or guns on the market and easy to be purchase. However, given how big a part of our history firearms are, how many people are still big on the 2nd Amendment, and how there is still a plethora of guns and firearms out there, getting rid of them entirely really doesn't feel like a feasible scenario to me. Even moderating gun sales and making them more difficult to obtain would be difficult, because that would only work for responsible gun owners more than anything. As long as there are a wide array of guns in the county, criminals will be able to get their hands on them somehow.

As for my own personal stance on gun ownership, I don't have a huge problem with them. If people want to own a small pistol or something else small to act as a defensive measure, then that is perfectly fine. Carrying a gun like that can really help one feel more protected. I also understand having hunting rifles and other firearms in relation to hunting, as hunting is fairly important in certain sections of the country. I know that the southern US suffers from a wild boar invasive species which can damage native plants and fauna, and generally cause a ton of damage. They've allowed open hunting on these animals, which is a good thing because it benefits both the hunters themselves as well as the ecosystem in which the wild boar resides.
I know, it's been a bit derailed a bit hasn't it haha (I don't mind) :)

Yeah, I think from this thread this is where my understanding has come in more so now that basically taking them away would also cause a problem because they have been obtainable for so long a simple ban is just going to leave it in a case of all these guns out there illegally and people feeling vulnerable because of this. This is why I think (personally) that the law of these guns being in place in the first place wasn't really great as with them being there for so long, it's kind of put people in this situation that the only way they could do this now (or should I say the best way) would be to make sure all guns are completely gone so that people feel safe. Of course that's not possible so I get how it's such a catch 22 situation.

It's like how I mentioned previously. The best way I can describe it is it's kind of in a position of attacking a problem with a problem by necessity. It's like if people didn't feel unsafe then they wouldn't need to have guns in the first place. Protecting yourselves from the problem with the problem basically and I get that because of course take them away. Like Rick James mentioned and also others here this would clearly make people feel unsafe and vulnerable without them because they're so ingrained basically and out there. Of course it would be a slow and steady process unless there was some way of doing this where they are 100% eradicated to the point where no one feels the need to have a gun and protect themselves from other guns but of course, that's incredibly difficult to do with no guarantee they would be all eradicated either. It's such a catch 22 situation.

I just think of it from my perspective of I don't feel the need to have a gun at all and that's actually quite a nice feeling. Like I want you guys who feel the need for this to feel that security too if that makes sense. The reason we don't feel the need to have a gun for our safety is because we know that it's not going to happen to us someone coming and attacking us with a gun simply because they are incredibly hard to get hold of, if at all. It also stops all the situations of people messing up people's lives and their lives say from irrational thinking. Like for example, say if some guy catches his girl in bed with another man, he gets angry, he goes to Wall Mart and grabs a gun, comes back and shoots the guy and/or the girl. Takes their lives, messes up their family and friends who loved them and even messes up their own life by doing this also, all from irrational thinking and acting out of emotion. This wouldn't happen to us because we can't get a gun, it's just impossible and lets say for argument sake we could, it would take us so long to do this by that point we'd have calmed down and realised that all this isn't worth doing therefor so many lives are saved and things like that. It's all these perspectives for me :)

However I DO get it from some of the posts here in regards to the situation some places are in now with the guns feeling secure really. The only way round that I can think of (and it would probably take someone with better thinking than me to come up with an idea) would be to clear out these cities where the problem is. Eradicate all the guns and move the people in fear to a safer town until it's safe to go back again. However of course, easier said than done and so many complications come with that also so it just goes back to the whole it's not as easy and simple to just say 'Lets ban guns', there's a much deeper problem there for doing it and it needs to be a process where people would feel completely safe in the meantime, how that could be done I have no idea but at least it would be better too for future generations who wouldn't have to live in fear with these things.

But yeah, can you understand what I mean in regards to these kinda things. It's like those who live in places where they feel a gun is a necessity I would love for them to be able to live where I am for a day or so and see the difference. It's such a catch 22 and I understand it better now from this thread about them being there and when people want them. It's not a case of gun crazy people that want guns half the time (which is what I think some people think) but at the same time when push comes to shove guns are just not good and do more harm and hurt than anything but I do completely understand certain people being fearful if they don't have the guns. That's why I say it's such a catch 22 situation.

Personally I do feel that something does need to be done somehow someway to eradicate them at some point, simply so that people can live without fear and having this on them. So people don't lose loved one's like the Christina Grimmie situation and also for things like I mentioned in a previous reply, I want my mum to be able to walk to the shop without the risk of something happening to her like this and that's so nice to have that feeling knowing my mum can go out and be completely safe. That's very refreshing and nice and everyone should feel this. If something happened to her out of a gun crime simply because these clowns can so easily get these guns I would be absolutely heartbroken and that wouldn't bring my mum back so it's just all things like that really.

Although I don't agree with guns at all, I can understand it a bit better now that people want to have them simply because of the catch 22 situation they are now in and getting rid really isn't that easy. If it hadn't have got that deep and been there in the first place this problem wouldn't be there. But it's pointless debating that because the problem is there regardless so how it's solved I'm not sure, though I do think it can be and I do think you guys are more than capable of doing it somehow someway because you are quite admirable as a nation and as people when you come together and I think that the US always overcome things, which again I think is really admirable personally :)
 
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#18 ·
I used to support gun control, and I still do in terms of sensible measures. But all of these guns are out there now, supposedly there's as many guns as there are people in the U.S. It's hard to say "no, law-abiding citizen wishing to protect yourself, your family, and your property, you cannot have a gun. so, either break the law, or be at the mercy of others who break the law."

Guns are like drugs, outlawing them doesn't make them go away or even especially hard to get. I could literally go about 8 blocks east and buy heroin, and I live in a decent neighborhood! Of course, if heroin was legal, I might be more apt to try it, so there might be a point there in favor of gun control. But it's my guess that people who would shoot up a nightclub probably really want a gun. If I really wanted heroin, I could get it.

As much as I'd like to support stricter gun control because of the hope that it would prevent incidents like this, I don't think it would help and you'd be restricting the freedoms of those who aren't doing anything wrong. It's also very ingrained in culture here. I just don't see a way to get the guns out of America.
 
#20 ·
I used to support gun control, and I still do in terms of sensible measures. But all of these guns are out there now, supposedly there's as many guns as there are people in the U.S. It's hard to say "no, law-abiding citizen wishing to protect yourself, your family, and your property, you cannot have a gun. so, either break the law, or be at the mercy of others who break the law."

Guns are like drugs, outlawing them doesn't make them go away or even especially hard to get. I could literally go about 8 blocks east and buy heroin, and I live in a decent neighborhood! Of course, if heroin was legal, I might be more apt to try it, so there might be a point there in favor of gun control. But it's my guess that people who would shoot up a nightclub probably really want a gun. If I really wanted heroin, I could get it.

As much as I'd like to support stricter gun control because of the hope that it would prevent incidents like this, I don't think it would help and you'd be restricting the freedoms of those who aren't doing anything wrong. It's also very ingrained in culture here. I just don't see a way to get the guns out of America.
I never understand this logic. If you are doing nothing wrong how would stricter gun control affect those people? It wouldn't, that argument is just fear mongering from the pro gun crowd.
 
#97 ·
Haven´t read the full op, but if a country lets people get weapons it will be easier to commit crimes. Also it is easier to have accidents. I must agree that any person can make a bomb if has the necesary knowledge but it gives more confidence and it is easier when all is pull the trigger too fast to have remorses.

Anyway the problem may not be having a weapon, it may be the ammunition, here in Spain you can get a weapon but it is quite harder to get ammo and use it legally. But here in Spain the problem is that the law is pretty protective with criminals If you smash the face of a burglar against a wall of your house you will probably have to pay him/her for damages. Not to mention the elite mafia who rules the country :(
 
#133 ·
Being and living in Northern Ireland, I just find it crazy how folk can just go in and randomly buy a gun in certain parts of America. Even the thought of anyone owning a gun makes my mind go crazy :CENA .

However, I'd probably understand if I actually lived in America. In ways too with how things are in the World, I can see why folk may want to protect themselves in a certain way by owning a gun.
 
#138 · (Edited)
As an Irish, a member of a group that has historically been one of the most oppressed in the world it absolutely astounds me that you think that the government and all of its agencies should be allowed to have guns and you can't even imagine owning one.

It worries me that just in case a massive war does break out, western young men will not be ready to protect their own homelands. Not when so many of them can't even decide anymore if they're women or if they're men.
 
#136 ·
If you can pick a gun to protect yourself it means than a burglar or thief can pick a gun to assault you counting on the surprise effect and the lack of training combat you probably get hurt.

Not to talk about domestic violence or accidents...

It looks like there are more killed people in USA due to mad armed civilian people than islamic terrorism in Europe. Maybe Trump should consider develop bulletproof gear instead of letting people having guns.
 
#137 ·
Well it's all fucked beyond belief at this point. The fact that apparently even most of the most eager gun owners want more gun control, now that atrocities like Sandy Hook happened and all the instances of toddlers accidentally (or did they) killing other people and family members, but that Congress is so owned by the NRA that they refuse to bring it up because it's political suicide.

But I think for non-Americans it's hard for us to understand how important their constitution and the 2nd Amendment about guns is. I mean for some of them it seems to be up there with the most important things in their lives and to change anything about that would be like shitting on the flag.

Until they're able to reign in gun lobbyists and de-politicise the whole issue and look at it a bit scientifically rather than making the constitution the start and stop point - nothing will change.
 
#38 · (Edited)
The world doesn't consist of the usa, western europe, Australia, China and japan. It always astounds me when people talk about the rest of the world like the whole world is western europe. The western European model on private gun ownership is actually the minority.

There's also countries like russia and brazil with stricter gun laws and worse gun violence. And if you think you can't get guns in the UK if you want to bad enough then you aren't paying attention. Theres lots of guns floating around western and particularly eastern europe.

The singling out of the United states on gun violence is a mixture of ignorance and falling prey to incessant anti american propaganda and cultural chauvinism prevalent in western media.
 
#42 ·
I could never get a gun in the UK and quite honestly I'm glad.

I, or anyone I know can't go into their local store and grab a gun to go out and shoot someone and that's a good thing. Imagine all the irrational killings that are saved due to this?

It's not about singling out the US. It's what we know about hence the reason why it's in conversation. If other countries have this also then the same can be said about them and it's not even a knock on the US either (if that's what you were thinking) but it's more about understanding people's perspectives and respecting that.

I'm personally 1000000% against guns, completely against them but I'm also open to listening to the reasoning from people on the other side of this to give me an understanding, which if you read through the thread some of this has come into play with me.

I don't agree with it but I understand it, specially when it comes to eradicating them, at the end of the day when push comes to shove them existing is not good and places where they're not obtainable have a much safer feeling.

As I mentioned before I have NEVER feared for my life in regards to the risk of a gun, not even a thought and why, because people can't easily get them over here and it's not going to happen.

Come to the UK as an innocent citizen and try get a gun. I guarantee you won't be able to and that's a good thing. I personally would have NO idea how to do this and neither does anyone I know or anyone that people I know, know either.

I also have never in my life known of anyone being victim of a gun crime or anyone involved in a gun crime. Or has anyone I know known anything in regards to this either.

And that's a good thing as I don't want to live in fear in regards to guns. I'm thankful for that.

BUT I can understand the position the US are in now with eradicating them and why they feel the need to have guns (or any country that may be in this position by the way!). It's not as black and white as people think to just get rid of them, it's not as easy and it's also not a case of saying 'Lets just ban guns' because the problem is already out there due to the law being there in the first place.

Surely you can understand all of that. I personally see no benefit in having guns what so ever although I DO understand why people feel the need of them at the moment when they've been so easily obtainable in the public that a random ban on guns wouldn't solve the problem straight away and I also get the vulnerability it would cause too. That I can understand but that's simply because the problem has built up in the first place and that's why this predicament is in play.
 
#98 ·
I think the access to higher caliber firearms is also a huge concern that SHOULD be addressed. Only a select number of individuals should ever be allowed to use something with the power of an AK-47, and the fact that you see this kind of weapon often in the news as a result of these mass shooting is really worrying.
 
#99 ·
US law is heavily based on precedent

If you rule that one amendment can be gotten rid of because "its not a big deal or doesn't make sense" than ALL rights are treated the same way, flexible and able to rescinded if found to be in convenient

Its either everything or nothing, you can't pick and choose your protections and your rights
 
#131 · (Edited)
You know, guns are the things that are preventing terrorism in another way too right? Everyone even the most avid gun control enthusiasts are perfectly ok with Police, Military and Security "officials" carrying and using guns as deterrents. Right?

Second amendment people simply say that we should be allowed to protect ourselves because we don't trust the State to be there 24/7.

I'm planning to get a gun to protect my home. There has been a rash of burglaries around my area. My own car was broken into and the only house that's safe is my neighbor because everyone in the entire city knows he is one of the most conservative gun owners in the city. We look like a couple of young hipsters unfortunately so we're not as safe and our car got hit in our own driveway. I've already started looking and in a few weeks I'll have a gun.

If it prevents even one burglar from attacking us, I believe that its job is done.
 
#132 ·
Guns don't kill people.. the Government does.

On a serious note any sort of gun ban wouldn't work.

I'm beginning to think people don't know basic geography and know where the US is located.

The gun ban in Aussieland wouldn't work in the US because Aussieland is an entire continent onto it's own that has pretty secure borders.

The US is located next to Mexico, you know the place flooding the US with drugs and any form of contraband it can? The US has wiiiide open borders and it seems the people who don't want closed borders want gun control but how do you suppose you stop illegal guns from flowing into the US with open borders?

Besides the gun manufacturers would move to South America and guess what? They'd produce lots of guns and the cartels have more ship into the US. South America is flooded with weapons already.

The US isn't it's own continent, the US is saddled next to a third world hell hole which is connected to an even bigger hell hole. We're not Canada tucked away safe by our big brother nation nor are we some sealed off place in the middle of nowhere.

Guns are American as apple pie. I would trust the American Government handling a gun ban as much as I'd trust Sweden handling it's rape problem.

:jericho2
 
#134 ·
Sounds pretty racist, blaming Mexico, Miss Sally. :mj

As an aside, there was an excellent piece of investigative journalism by Tucker Carlson and the producers of his show the other night. The illegal alien/untoward immigrant crime problem in the U.S. is even worse than I thought: In one American city after another, there is not a single American-born criminal among the FBI's "Ten Most Wanted" for that city or region. This included several northeastern cities.

The U.S. government has been complicit in allowing the rise of criminal organizations which are presently more pervasive than the old Sicilian Mafia. :lol


Anyway, states may have varied laws concerning guns. If people really want guns they will get them. The issue seems to be deadlocked at that pivot point.
 
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#135 · (Edited)
350 million+ privately owned guns.

Well over 100 million gun owners.

That's the situation and it's not changing. Gun grabbers need to figure out the incredible futility of their cause already. If even 5% of the people who own guns refused to give them up in a hypothetical United States adopts Western European gun laws scenario, that's far too many for the government to succeed in confiscating their guns. And every time there's a new gun law passed people simply ignore it. They passed all these 15-round or 10-round magazine limits in states like Connecticut and New York, the state police in both states have admitted that nobody is obeying those laws. You're supposed to register magazines over the limit and in some cases turn them in to the state police and you're not allowed to buy more. People have simply ignored the laws. They aren't registering or turning in shit and they buy what they want over the internet or they travel out of state to buy what they want and bring what they bought home. The compliance rate based on state police estimates of how many magazines of the now-banned sizes were already in those states and the amount of magazines registered or turned in to the government is like 10, 15%. There's too many people ignoring those laws for them to be enforced. And that is in two fairly left-wing states.

It's tilting at windmills.
 
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