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Old 01-29-2014, 11:26 AM   #81 (permalink)
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Default Re: Eastern Europe Discussion Thread

I just found this map on Wikipedia, which says that Lithuania and other Baltic states are in Northern Europe.



It's a little complicated, as I've said before, living in Lithuania I feel it's like 50/50,
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Old 01-29-2014, 11:43 AM   #82 (permalink)
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Default Re: Eastern Europe Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by Batko10 View Post
Here is an excellent video debate on the situation in Ukraine that just came out a few hours ago.

This was interesting though RT is widely known to be owned and financed by the russian government and they have an almost laughable and propagandistic pro-Russia bias.

But it went in the direction of what I was saying. Those countries are almost hopeless because of the centuries and centuries of bad blood and continuous political and social conflicts. There's so much hatred and violence rooted in history that it's almost as if they're always on the verge of conflict. I'm sure there are some countries less affected than others but the overall scenario is pretty much the same. It's very hard to not let yourself be submerged and influenced by that environment of anger and violence. That's why heavy metal and all those other types of extreme music are very predominant in those nordic and eastern european countries. It's a deep rooted cultural issue.
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Old 01-29-2014, 12:15 PM   #83 (permalink)
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Default Re: Eastern Europe Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by napalmdestruction View Post
This was interesting though RT is widely known to be owned and financed by the russian government and they have an almost laughable and propagandistic pro-Russia bias.

But it went in the direction of what I was saying. Those countries are almost hopeless because of the centuries and centuries of bad blood and continuous political and social conflicts. There's so much hatred and violence rooted in history that it's almost as if they're always on the verge of conflict. I'm sure there are some countries less affected than others but the overall scenario is pretty much the same. It's very hard to not let yourself be submerged and influenced by that environment of anger and violence. That's why heavy metal and all those other types of extreme music are very predominant in those nordic and eastern european countries. It's a deep rooted cultural issue.
And when I thought you couldn't get more retarded. Please explain how Heavy Metal is a cultural issue.
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Old 01-29-2014, 12:32 PM   #84 (permalink)
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Default Re: Eastern Europe Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by napalmdestruction View Post
This was interesting though RT is widely known to be owned and financed by the russian government and they have an almost laughable and propagandistic pro-Russia bias...
And the media in the U.S. and E.U. has an almost laughable and propagandistic pro-West, anti-Russian bias. This was brought out in the video discussion a number of times by the correspondent in France.

Despite being shown on RT, this video discussion was a great deal more balanced than the pro-revolutionary, biased coverage on Ukraine that one sees in the Western media as a whole.


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But it went in the direction of what I was saying. Those countries are almost hopeless because of the centuries and centuries of bad blood and continuous political and social conflicts. There's so much hatred and violence rooted in history that it's almost as if they're always on the verge of conflict..
And your solution is that joining the EU will end the bad blood and problems that have existed for centuries??? This is as absurd as lumping all Eastern European nations in one category as you did.

Western Europe has also had its share of "bad blood" and "social conflicts" over the centuries. May I remind you that the among other travesties the bloodbath of the Inquisition and the horrors of Nazism are Western European phenomena.

Your attitude toward Eastern Europeans is akin to the attitude of Western Europeans toward their colonies in the 17th and 18th centuries which was personified by the slogan, "THE WHITE MAN'S BURDEN."

Your bigotry is NOT welcome here.

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Old 01-29-2014, 02:26 PM   #85 (permalink)
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Default Re: Eastern Europe Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by TomasThunder619 View Post
And when I thought you couldn't get more retarded. Please explain how Heavy Metal is a cultural issue.
If there's a retarded thing here it is your reading comprehension. Heavy Metal is not the cultural issue but the deep-rooted violence and hate culture is and one of the ways it manifests itself is through the love for agressive and violent music like Heavy Metal and its derivatives.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Batko10 View Post
And the media in the U.S. and E.U. has an almost laughable and propagandistic pro-West, anti-Russian bias. This was brought out in the video discussion a number of times by the correspondent in France.

Despite being shown on RT, this video discussion was a great deal more balanced than the pro-revolutionary, biased coverage on Ukraine that one sees in the Western media as a whole.
Maybe the pro-West bias is justified seeing as how the West doesn't unfairly imprison people simply because they speak against their political leaders. In Russia that's a pretty common occurrence apparently.

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Originally Posted by Batko10 View Post
And your solution is that joining the EU will end the bad blood and problems that have existed for centuries??? This is as absurd as lumping all Eastern European nations in one category as you did.

Western Europe has also had its share of "bad blood" and "social conflicts" over the centuries. May I remind you that the among other travesties the bloodbath of the Inquisition and the horrors of Nazism are Western European phenomena.

Your attitude toward Eastern Europeans is akin to the attitude of Western Europeans toward their colonies in the 17th and 18th centuries which was personified by the slogan, "THE WHITE MAN'S BURDEN."

Your bigotry is NOT welcome here.

- Mike
Yes and no. Western europe and America do have its issues, of course but it's by far the lesser of the two evils. Just take a look at a spanish football game and a russian one, where black players are constantly heckled with insults and even banana throwing, something so ridiculously ignorant, boneheaded and racist that it's almost literally unbelievable that it still happens in the modern world (and to Roberto Carlos, a living legend, nonetheless). Not to mention the homosexuality controversy.

Nazism came in a strange period in history when the entire world was consummed with evil and your beloved Russia (or the USSR) has a very infamous past that almost rivals with the Nazi period of Germany or did you forget the horrors of Stalin's regime? And if you continue going east through Asia won't you be faced with the atrocities commited by the japanese during the same historical period?

A good example to validate my point is the current situation in Hungary with the criminalization of homelessness. The European parliament jumped on it almost instantly and is trying to prevent this embarrassing abuse of the human rights, in the twentieth century it's incredible that a civilized country could have such a disregard for basic human decency but thanks to the efforts of the EU and its threats of heavy penalties Hungary will have a very hard time continuing to uphold that law.

Eastern Europe is many years behind the rest of Europe in many aspects and their integration in the EU will help to accelerate this process of progress and development.
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Old 01-29-2014, 03:10 PM   #86 (permalink)
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Default Re: Eastern Europe Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by napalmdestruction View Post
Maybe the pro-West bias is justified seeing as how the West doesn't unfairly imprison people simply because they speak against their political leaders. In Russia that's a pretty common occurrence apparently.
First of all, the video was discussing the situation in Ukraine and the Western media bias for the revolutionaries rioting in the street. The Western media ignores the crimes and evil of the rioters, much the same way that you ignore the dark side of the West and never give a straight answer. Sidestepping answering for the crimes of the West by bringing up something that was wrong elsewhere is a typical tactic of a provocateur, i.e. flamer.

Over the last 20 years it has been the U.S. and NATO that have initiated myriad regime changes, armed unstable leaders like Mikhail Saakashvili, and, when all else failed, openly invaded sovereign nations. Russian actions pale beside what has been perpetrated by the U.S. and NATO over the last two decades.

When the West's actions are analyzed, it would appear that a pro-West bias by the media is totally unjustified in the cold light of day.

- Mike
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Old 01-29-2014, 04:57 PM   #87 (permalink)
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Default Re: Eastern Europe Discussion Thread

Talk about side-stepping arguments. You didn't argue any of my points and then you call me a flamer on top. You did exactly the same. You were trying to portray the West as evil because of Nazism when pretty much similar horrific events were happening in the Russia you were trying to defend. Yes, the West has wars and poverty and hatred like everywhere in this world but it's in a much better shape both socially and politically when compared to the situation in the eastern european states. It's more socially accepting, less discriminative and more culturally progressive.

The western european way of life is without a doubt the lesser of the two evils and you can ask anyone what would they prefer to live under and most of them would answer the west. That's the will of the people. Srdjan99 said it, Romania for example is way behind western europe and it's time for a full integration so that all european nations can become equal, free and modern. Russia under Putin's regime is marching in exactly the opposite direction, with progressively fewer liberties, less free speech, an oppresive regime who is violent against their outspoken political adversaries and an economy dominated by mafia-like oil companies. Political freedom in Russia nowadays is merely an illusion with Putin jumping from one positions to another and putting puppets in his place when he's legally prohibited from his duties. It's no wonder the Ukrainian people want to separate themselves from that sort of regime - they've been there numerous times before and the country shows no signs of improvement.

You make it sound as if the entire group of rioters are neo-nazi sympathizers when in fact they're a small to somewhat significant part of the movement (which by the way supports my theory that those countries have large percentages of hateful and violent extremists with a desire for violence, even more so than other countries), a movement that is desired by most of the ukranian population, who's tired of their russian-like corrupt politics and wants to modernize itself in the european mold. The only people who are against Ukraine turning to western europe are the Russians and the russian sympathizers who are afraid of losing influence over the Ukraine.

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Old 01-29-2014, 05:46 PM   #88 (permalink)
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Default Re: Eastern Europe Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by napalmdestruction View Post
Talk about side-stepping arguments. You didn't argue any of my points and then you call me a flamer on top. You did exactly the same. You were trying to portray the West as evil because of Nazism when pretty much similar horrific events were happening in the Russia you were trying to defend...
I didn't sidestep anything. I just won't keep answering your questions when you continue to answer our questions with questions. My mention of the Inquisition and Nazism were two examples of how the West is no better than the East. Your answer that "similar horrific events were happening in Russia" does not justify Nazism and remove the guilt from the West for its toleration of it. It just dances around my statement.

I could sit here and make lists of injustices in the West if you like - slavery of Africans, genocide of Native Americans, colonialism, anti-semitism, Nazism, Inquisition, etc., etc. And, you could sit back and make lists of injustices in the East. The bottom line is, the history of the West is blighted with just as many, if not more, evils than the East.

In actuality, you sound very much like a Nazi who looks at the people of Eastern Europe as "untermann." I believe your statement in one of your first posts says it all about you:

"...every country east of germany is pretty much worthless."

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Old 01-29-2014, 07:17 PM   #89 (permalink)
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Default Re: Eastern Europe Discussion Thread

Now that's going too far. Calling me a nazi? What the hell is wrong with you?

Those countries are indeed pretty much worthless but not because of the people who live in them. It's that whole culture and mentality of violence and hatred that still prevails to this day. Just as I said in the same post, I think those people should immigrate to the west and live their lives peacefully instead of being constantly surrounded by that mentality of violence, hatred and corruption because it will take a while before things get better.

But how is this whole discussion of West and East's history relevant to the topic of the Ukrainian revolution? The only thing that matters is where each of those sections are at today and it is undeniable that looking West is the better solution for Ukraine's political and social problems. Sure, both of their pasts are stained with blood and ghosts of repression and you're right, maybe the west was even worse than the East, who cares, the only thing that should matter here is that Russia is going in the wrong direction at the moment and the Ukraine should separate themselves from it as soon as possible. Not sure if having a pro-boxer as your future leader is a good idea though, especially if you want to stay away from violence and war.
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Old 01-29-2014, 09:40 PM   #90 (permalink)
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Default Re: Eastern Europe Discussion Thread

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Now that's going too far. Calling me a nazi? What the hell is wrong with you?

Those countries are indeed pretty much worthless but not because of the people who live in them. It's that whole culture and mentality of violence and hatred that still prevails to this day. Just as I said in the same post, I think those people should immigrate to the west and live their lives peacefully instead of being constantly surrounded by that mentality of violence, hatred and corruption because it will take a while before things get better.

But how is this whole discussion of West and East's history relevant to the topic of the Ukrainian revolution? The only thing that matters is where each of those sections are at today and it is undeniable that looking West is the better solution for Ukraine's political and social problems. Sure, both of their pasts are stained with blood and ghosts of repression and you're right, maybe the west was even worse than the East, who cares, the only thing that should matter here is that Russia is going in the wrong direction at the moment and the Ukraine should separate themselves from it as soon as possible. Not sure if having a pro-boxer as your future leader is a good idea though, especially if you want to stay away from violence and war.
Well at least we're back on topic again. You are the one who made ethnically derogatory remarks about the countries of Eastern Europe and that's how we digressed from the topic. Calling you a Nazi may have been too strong. But, you definitely look at Eastern Europe from the perspective of a colonial exploiter who considers the people there beneath the people in Western Europe.

Be that as it may, from a logical perspective I don't know how you can say that Ukraine would be better off in the EU than in the Customs Union with Russia, Kazakhstan, Belarus (and Armenia)?

Economically, the Customs Union has much more to offer than the EU for example:

- NATURAL GAS at $160 per 1,000 cubic meters rather than the $430 they would pay as EU members;
- CRUDE OIL at 40% of the international price from both Kazakhstan and Russia instead of paying 100% as an EU member;
- FREE ACCESS TO THE CUSTOM'S UNION MARKETS where Ukraine already exports a third of its goods and gets 50% of its imports.
- THE UKRAINIAN HRYVNIA would remain the official currency of the country. Ukraine would not be forced to convert to the Euro and defacto relinguish its banking system to the EU.

Seriously, the only thing I see in Ukraine's future if it joined the EU is a mass migration of Ukrainian workers to EU countries after the EU makes an economic wasteland out of the country.

On the social side, ethnically Ukrainians are Eastern Slavs like the Byelorussians and Russians. Except for Western Ukrainians who make up around 25% of the population, most Ukrainians look at the other Eastern Slavs as their brothers and sisters. There is over a 1,000 year history starting with the Baptism of Kievan Rus into Orthodox Christianity that binds the Eastern Slavs (except, of course, the Western Ukrainians who are Uniate Catholics and have animosity toward Eastern Orthodoxy).

The constant harping about "Russian oppression and exploitation of Ukraine" comes from the Western Ukrainian minority, not from the majority of Ukrainians.

- Mike
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