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post #2901 of 9693 (permalink) Old 02-26-2013, 12:33 PM
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Re: Stupid Posts Thread

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Originally Posted by WOOLCOCK View Post
That's a gross over simplification though. Yes Cena got his ass kicked for 95% of the match, but its about the pacing, the selling, the fear Lesnar could kill him, how he timed his hope spots and how they built eventually to the finish. I mean, babyface gets dominated for the majority of the match leading into a comeback and finish is the bread and butter of American wrestling. Its how workers take the cliche and trusted formula and put their unique spin on it. Flair got slaughtered at Starrcade '93 against Vader, the story of the match was how Flair's pride and belief was futile because he wasn't in his prime anymore and Vader had massacred everyone he'd wrestled. Flair bumping, selling and feeding off of the hometown Charlotte crowd generated an unbelieveable atmosphere. It was the same with Lesnar/Cena. The story was Cena taking a ferocious beating, not quitting and desperately trying to find a way back into the match, having two brief but significant comebacks and the eventual finish where it was apparent he had to win there and then or he was done for.

You're correct that Cena being mutilated was the focus of the match, but its the story, pacing and subtle work to progress that story which is what should be taken away from it. It just feels silly to label it a squash and move on. Its the things you don't see and have to pick up on for yourself that make the match great as opposed to a TV squash.



Lesnar had to be great in control to make it engaging and not boring, but you also need a compelling babyface to make it equally interesting. Cena is engaging for good and bad reasons because the kids adore him and the adults want his head on a stick. You can't seriously expect to say Miz vs Lesnar would have been as good? HHH vs Lesnar fell flat on its arse because HHH lacked any passion or emotion compared to Cena and worked a far safer and conventional formula that limited Lesnar's presence and ability. Anyone could have worked 99% of Ric Flair title defences in his prime. Not many would have been able to work it as well and achieve the consistency and great matches as him though. Since despite the simple style and execution of basic moves the storytelling, pacing and character work in his matches took them to a greater level than matches with similar formats but which were woeful in comparison when it came to the character work and storytelling.



Again, New Jack is dire and if you're telling me he can bump and sell well enough to get people to care about him...well then I just don't know. Cena didn't bump and sell any differently than a lot of other guys would have, but through his charisma and polarising appeal to different dynamics he was able to keep an atmosphere and story moving along that added to a match. Miz could bump exactly the same but he lacks the appeal and diverse presence that Cena has. The best workers are the ones who can work a fairly simple style but be good at the subtle and less obvious intangibles to make the basic work so great. Jerry Lawler used a punch for 95% of his offence in almost all his matches in his prime, it was his bumping, selling, playing to a crowd, timing his comeback and ability to pull a crowd into the match that separated him from another guy just throwing punches.



This just bemuses me. To compare a dire match in Cena/Miz with two terrible performances to one of Cena's best babyface performances a year later and with a genuinly masterclass heel performance from Lesnar...I just can't even see how you arrive at that comparison. Miz' work was terribly uninteresting, plodding and lacking in any connection. Lesnar splitting Cena open, ragdolling him around the ring and laying in a beating not seen since the days of Benoit/Finlay/Regal wrestling one another made the match something you just don't see in WWE. WWE is generally about the spectacle and trying to sell violence as terrifying when its basic and hardly apparent. Lesnar/HHH was the epitome of WWE trying to build up this violent spectacle and then presenting something different entirely. Lesnar/Cena felt like something out of Japan with how brutal it was in spells. Not to mention the timing on Cena's two hope spots (the Backlund deadlift out of the Kimura and the chain shot) were both marvellous and Lesnar sold both spots tremendously through showing subtle fear and worry.



Eh, don't know why I went to so much effort here.
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post #2902 of 9693 (permalink) Old 02-26-2013, 12:41 PM
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Re: Stupid Posts Thread

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Originally Posted by Seabs View Post
I'm glad WOOLCOCK made that post because I was thinking all of that but couldn't be bothered typing it all up. Bravo lad.
I am filled with glee that if someone frustrates me greatly (Yes DualShock i'mma speaking to you) I have free reign to call him a twonk who couldn't lead a bumrape in a barracks and a waste of dead skin without any reprisal.

@ blarg: I did spot some great discussion in here but it had moved on by the time I read through the bulk of it. Reminds me of Cat's thread last year or maybe even a little longer than that which was put in rants and generated great discussion.
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post #2903 of 9693 (permalink) Old 02-26-2013, 12:54 PM
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Re: Stupid Posts Thread

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Originally Posted by WOOLCOCK View Post

@ blarg: I did spot some great discussion in here but it had moved on by the time I read through the bulk of it. Reminds me of Cat's thread last year or maybe even a little longer than that which was put in rants and generated great discussion.

Don't think I remember the Cat thread. Do you remember what it was called?

Yeah, my guess is that the non-wrestling sections generate better discussions because they're not saturated by the huge crop of posters in the regular sections that take over the threads with pointless factoids and utter nonsense. The traffic and post rate is also much higher in the regular sections, so threads get lost in the shuffle before you know it. Kinda sad, there used to be some consistantly great posters in that section when I first joined, I guess most of them are burned out by now.

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post #2904 of 9693 (permalink) Old 02-26-2013, 12:59 PM
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Re: Stupid Posts Thread

'Old School WWF Rules'. http://www.wrestlingforum.com/rants/...wwf-rules.html

I think it got moved to rants and it turned out very well. It was mainly about the Golden Era of Wrestling but peak WCW (89-94) and the territories also got discussed prominently. One of the better if not the best wrestling related topic that was actively discussed in rants.
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post #2905 of 9693 (permalink) Old 02-26-2013, 01:00 PM
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Re: Stupid Posts Thread

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Originally Posted by WOOLCOCK View Post
This just bemuses me. To compare a dire match in Cena/Miz with two terrible performances to one of Cena's best babyface performances a year later and with a genuinly masterclass heel performance from Lesnar...I just can't even see how you arrive at that comparison. Miz' work was terribly uninteresting, plodding and lacking in any connection. Lesnar splitting Cena open, ragdolling him around the ring and laying in a beating not seen since the days of Benoit/Finlay/Regal wrestling one another made the match something you just don't see in WWE. WWE is generally about the spectacle and trying to sell violence as terrifying when its basic and hardly apparent. Lesnar/HHH was the epitome of WWE trying to build up this violent spectacle and then presenting something different entirely. Lesnar/Cena felt like something out of Japan with how brutal it was in spells. Not to mention the timing on Cena's two hope spots (the Backlund deadlift out of the Kimura and the chain shot) were both marvellous and Lesnar sold both spots tremendously through showing subtle fear and worry.
It's not about how good Lesnar acted in the match or how terrible the Miz was, it's about how Cena acted in those matches and this is what both matches have in common. It doesn't matter if the Lesnar match looked more real and brutal, it's about Cena and in both matches the opponent did the work and Cena finished it with 1-2 moves in the end.
Everybody could do Cena's part in the Extreme Rules 2012 match and this is not a joke, trolling or Cena bashing. It was Lesnar who had this aura and the killer instinct who contributed to the brutality but everybody, be it Kane, Riley, Barrett, Edge, Orton or anybody else can play the victim the whole match and finish it with one single punch.

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post #2906 of 9693 (permalink) Old 02-26-2013, 01:08 PM
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Re: Stupid Posts Thread

Sheeit. Found the thread and glanced through the first 5 pages. Seems to go all over the place with nostalgic goodness. Think i'm going to bookmark it and read through it thoroughly later on tonight when I get the chance.

This is one thread I wish they'd make an exception to anti-bumping

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post #2907 of 9693 (permalink) Old 02-26-2013, 01:16 PM
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Re: Stupid Posts Thread

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Originally Posted by DualShock View Post
It's not about how good Lesnar acted in the match or how terrible the Miz was, it's about how Cena acted in those matches and this is what both matches have in common. It doesn't matter if the Lesnar match looked more real and brutal, it's about Cena and in both matches the opponent did the work and Cena finished it with 1-2 moves in the end.
Everybody could do Cena's part in the Extreme Rules 2012 match and this is not a joke, trolling or Cena bashing. It was Lesnar who had this aura and the killer instinct who contributed to the brutality but everybody, be it Kane, Riley, Barrett, Edge, Orton or anybody else can play the victim the whole match and finish it with one single punch.
Again, you're over simplifying it. Cena bumped and sold extensively, that's 'work' whether you want to admit it or not. He bumped and made himself look in peril and his presence added to the match. The adults took glee in seeing him get bloodied and smashed with ungodly stiff Lesnar strikes and the kids begged him to make a comeback. Most babyfaces do less work than a heel in terms of controlling a match. The face has to sell and bump and do a lot of work without doing much in terms of offence. He'll get a shine period and a comeback, everything in between is the heel controlling. If you can't see the difference between a terrible Cena/Miz match where there was no heat, no compelling performance or smart work with that of Lesnar/Cena where the entire match built and built and built to the Cena comeback where the monster Lesnar was finally troubled...then I can't help you. Cena/Miz was a basic match done in lazy fashion and lacking in any charm. Lesnar/Cena was how to work basic but add enough subtle and intricate touches in pacing, selling and build to make it matter in the grand scheme.

And again, if you think Alex Riley could control a crowd and make them give a shit in the manner Cena did (whether it was positive or negative) you're blind. Cena has a connection with all the folk in the audience of any dynamic, he bumped in a way that others could but no-one else on the roster minus Taker and Punk (being a Chicago crowd) would have generated the buzz and intrigue like Cena did, that is the crucial difference.

Your argument implies Barrett could work a Jerry Lawler match as good as Jerry Lawler, if he merely copied and recycled Lawler's offence, since Lawler didn't do anything 100 other guys couldn't do in terms of the offence he used. That's woefully naive on account of things Lawler could to make his matches so great in spite of working with a limited offence and moveset.
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post #2908 of 9693 (permalink) Old 02-26-2013, 01:24 PM
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Re: Stupid Posts Thread

So if you replaced Cena with ALEX RILEY in that match it would have been just as good then?

please reply back
xx

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post #2909 of 9693 (permalink) Old 02-26-2013, 01:27 PM
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Re: Stupid Posts Thread

Hey Seabs just think if Christian in 2009 was replaced by David Hart Smith. Just tell Smith to sell his arm a lot and work it into his comeback, wouldn't affect the quality at all.
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post #2910 of 9693 (permalink) Old 02-26-2013, 01:31 PM
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Re: Stupid Posts Thread

I like DH Smith

I get the point though.

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