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If Austin Never Turned Heel In 2001...

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#1 ·
...How differently do you feel his championship reign would have gone that year?

Let's say he defeats The Rock cleanly at Wrestlemania X-7 without Vince's help. The Rock leaves, and from there you have Undertaker, Kane, Jericho and Benoit on the babyface side of things, and HHH, Kurt Angle, and Big Show on the heel side of them. Feel free to pretend the Invasion storyline never happened too, if you wish. How do you think his title reign would have panned out?

For me, this is it:

Backlash - fights and beats Triple H. I know they supposedly settled things for good at No Way Out 2001, but that was different. It was merely a personal rivalry then, whereas now the championship is on the line, and Hunter would obviously feel that his victory over Austin at No Way Out should grant him a fair shot at it. Austin goes over HHH here, end of story.

Judgment Day/King Of The Ring - I feel that whoever Austin feuds with here, the rivalry should last over two PPVs instead of one. I wanna go with Chris Benoit turning heel and getting ultra-aggressive on Austin like he did with The Rock a year before (especially since he and Austin did have a couple of great matches during this period anyway), but he had only just turned babyface early in the year, so reverting back to being a heel against so quickly may not have been a wise idea. If not Benoit, have Undertaker go heel much earlier than he did and feud with Austin for two months instead (although that has a "been there, done that" feeling to it. I'd want this reign of Austin's to be as fresh as possible.)

Fully Loaded (let's pretend the Invasion never happens) - Booker T. still interferes in the KOTR main event the same way he did, and then later cuts a promo saying that because WCW is out of business and he can no longer be the WCW World Heavyweight Champion (remembering that he was the last champion WCW had before it went under), he's gonna take the title from Austin and become WWF Champion instead. Fitting that these two should meet at the July PPV considering it was same month exactly a year earlier that Booker won his first world title in WCW. Maybe even have a faux unification match where Booker carries around the WCW belt saying that he's still a real world's champion until Austin beats him and proves he's the better man. Austin wins.

Summerslam/Unforgiven/No Mercy - And here comes the Kurt Angle feud, only with Austin as the face and Angle as the heel. They fight one-on-one at the first two PPVs, and if you want, you can still add in RVD (who will have already debut on the show by then anyway) as the wildcard and still make it a triple-threat match at No Mercy.

Survivor Series - Either the long-awaited Austin versus Rock rematch from WM 17, or the triple-threat match between Austin/Rock/HHH that we never got two years earlier and that we should have got at some point. Austin wins.

Vengeance - Austin loses one-on-one to a freshly turned Chris Jericho, who gets the accolade of ending what would be a nearly year-long title reign by that point. It's pretty the same from here (except without the quad injury, HHH turning babyface, winning the Rumble and defeating Jericho for the belt at Mania isn't quite as organic and likely doesn't happen at all, but I don't want to fantasy book up to that point.)

The only thing I might change about all of this is that the Austin/Rock match goes down at Summerslam instead, followed by two Austin/Angle singles matches at Unforgiven and No Mercy, and then the Austin/Rock/HHH triple-threat match at Survivor Series.

Anywho, what about you?
 
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#67 ·
This was a great topic and I put some good time into contributing to it and then yet again RLStern (the IWC idiot) and his fellow pathetic Rock marks who like him have no life and nothing better to do, came along and ruined yet another interesting thread.

I don't think you realise just how sad you really are RLStern lol

Why do so many of you respond to his laughable claims? I can't get my head around it. What baffles me more than that is why he hasn't been banned?

Both Rock and Austin were stars of epic proportions . . . End of!!!!!!
 
#51 · (Edited by Moderator)
Despite Dave Meltzer propagating that 9.5 overrun as the highest rated segment on RAW, I think Austin fans should stay away from using that as a proof of his drawing power. Why?

Because the real quarter ratings for that segment/match was 7.1, which was lesser than the previous quarter which drew 7.3 ratings. Thus it actually lost viewers(pure wrestling fans that were watching that show. The mighty Austin 3:16 with all his unbelievable drawing power lost viewers for his match against Taker:lol. And only gained viewers when RAW went into the time zone of other show, thereby all non-wrestling fans of that show tuned in to watch their program, and rather inflated Austin's number.


Anyway, overrun is NOT counted in the final ratings, so...



PS: For the record(and this is accepted by WWE themselves), the highest rated match of the AE was Mean Street Posse vs The Three Stooges which drew 8.6 for the quarter. And this same RAW was the highest rated as it got over 8 ratings. But this epiosode went against no competition, as Nitro was not aired by WCW on that night.

Highest rated segment is "Rock: This is Your Life", which drew 8.4 ratings for the quarter, and is the highest drawing promo/non-match segment of all time(also it went against Nitro).

^^The info is directly from WWE's Attitude Era DVD, and not from any third party.
 
#55 ·
:applause
 
#15 ·
Austin leaves WWF in late 1999 literally for an year and... they hit their peak in 2000 with Rock's drawing power as the sole basis for their success.

Rock leaves after WM 17, WWF business completely crashes down. Heel or face, Austin was not going to draw huge numbers on his own specially without Rock and HHH.
 
#54 · (Edited)
It really didn't matter if he turned heel or not. Rock wasn't there. Austin was more stale than Rock at that point but had the benefit of being gone for most of 2000 (But even that didn't last in terms of fan interest of his return), Rock was stale also but was leaving so it didn't matter.

Austin was old news, Rock was gone, storylines dropping in quality, influx of WCW shitty roster to the winning company.

Nothing could help. And LOL at people suggesting Triple H staying would have done anything. Another doofus who hung on the back of Rock's drawing power for the entire previous year. Listen to fucking Cornette people, he was the guy who worked with THE GUY. A non-factor if you will. If Austin NEEDED Triple H to be successful OY VEY.
 
#61 · (Edited)
It always takes 2 to draw so that really isn't Cornette's best point. You look at what Lesnar did against HHH compared to what he did against Punk and you can clearly see the impact a strong opponent can have. Don't like that go with Austin v Kane/ Undertaker compared to Dude Love. Not a slight towards Punk or Foley though especially because Foley did become a very good draw later in the year and Punk is credible draw in his own right. The stronger the opponent the better it's going to do.
 
#12 ·
...How differently do you feel his championship reign would have gone that year?
Wouldn't have worked, they turned Austin heel because he was failing to draw as a babyface since he came back in 2000, they tried putting him over alot of talent from 2000-early 2001(Rock, Kurt Angle, Triple H) and it didn't work.

Hence the heel turn to get him attention, he would have gotten less attention if he didn't turn heel.

The Problem is that The Rock, who was the WWF's top draw since 1998 left after Wrestlemania 17, thus ending the Wrestling Boom, you won't draw when your top draw, The Rock leaves for Hollywood. hence why April 2001 is considered the year the Attitude era died or at least started to die.

They could've stood up until Rock came back if they turned Triple H fan, as he got one the loudest pops the night after Mania, and was such a huge babyface in the Summer of 2000 that his feud with Kurt Angle made Kurt Angle an established main eventer/star, also Triple H was the WWF's 2nd top draw after The Rock.
 
#17 · (Edited)
A lot of fans would've turned on him, eventually. At that point, his gimmick been stale since WM 15. He desperately needed change.

Turning heel at Mania was definitely the right call, especially after HHH nearly split the crowd with him at NWO(you know you're fucked when 2000-2001 HHH get cheered against you). His heel run up until HHH went down with the injury was going great, but unfortunately, he became a clown the moment he went solo. That's one of the main reasons behind his decline.
 
#25 ·
A lot of fans would've turned on him, eventually. At that point, his gimmick been stale since WM 15. He desperately needed change.

Turning heel at Mania was definitely the right call, especially after HHH nearly split the crowd with him at NWO(you know you're fucked when 2000-2001 HHH get cheered going against you). His heel run up until HHH went down with the injury was going great, but unfortunately, he became a clown the moment he went solo. That's one of the main reasons behind his decline.
Yeah in this instance hindsight always look better, but Austin WAS STALE. HE EVEN KNEW IT HIMSELF. Nobody was going to care to see babyface Austin as champion against the SAME guys over and over.

How Austin's heel turn was executed (Austin's promo sucked for one) was the real problem and when it got rectified then HHH got injured who was going to be his main rival with Rock gone. Looking at the alternatives I still see the WWE not doing all that well post WM 17.
 
#77 · (Edited)
@Boots2Asses and @RLStern are two of the most rational users in this forum. Always backing up their points with facts and figures


Anyway, can we get the thread back to its theme?
I fantasy booked Austin into creating so many stars in 2001. WWE should sign me as a consultant.
 
#181 ·
If Austin Never Turned Heel In 2001...
...How differently do you feel his championship reign would have gone that year?


Was the original question for discussion. I knew this would just turn into yet
another Rock vs Austin thread that brings up buyrates and all the other shit we usually get, that has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Will this ever end?
 
#3 · (Edited)
I'd go with him accepting Vince's help to beat Rock, but swerving him by hitting a Stunner post-match (which is the audible Austin wishes he had pulled). Basically, Vince thinks he's finally got Austin as his perfect champion but Austin simply used him to get the title.

Backlash 2001
Despite Austin using him to get to the title, Vince still wants to be Austin's "friend" and puts him in situations where he has to be a quasi-heel, forcing him to team with HHH. The reluctant Two-Man Power Trip is formed as Austin & HHH defeat The Brothers of Destruction to win the Tag Titles, despite HHH wanting the WWF Title.

Judgement Day 2001
HHH finally gets his title match against Austin.....inside Hell in a Cell. The two men beat the living shit out of each other, worse than No Way Out 2001. At the end, Austin retains but in a shocking move, HHH extends his hand in show of respect. This kick starts HHH's face turn but it is cut short when he tears his quad during a tag title match on RAW where and Austin failed to regain them from Chris Benoit & Chris Jericho.

King of the Ring 2001
Gonna give the Invasion a shot. The WCW InVasion happens but DDP feuds with Rock and Mike Awesome will stalk Taker's wife. Anyways, WCW Champ Booker T interferes several times on RAW and Smackdown by attacking Austin. Stone Cold challenges him to a Lights Out, Non-Sanctioned Champion vs. Champion match. Austin is on the verge of victory until DOZENS of WCW guys come out to attack Austin, saving Booker. The invaders are run off into Shane O' Mac's limo by the WWF locker room to close out the PPV.

InVasion 2001
Austin leads Team WWF (Angle, Jericho, Taker & Kane) against Team WCW (Booker, DDP, Rhyno, Storm & Awesome) in the Inaugural Brawl. Austin is once again on the verge of pinning Booker but Jericho all of a sudden hits Austin with the WWF Title! Angle comes into the ring asking Jericho what the fuck but Jericho hits him as well. Booker pins Austin once again, as Jericho stands with Shane, Paul Heyman and the rest of WCW.

Summerslam 2001
Jericho's betrayal has earned him a WWF Title shot and the main event slot of Summerslam. A great back and forth contest is won by Jericho when another betrayal occurs. The neglected Big Show Chokeslams Austin with the referee distracted to give WCW and Jericho the WWF Title.

Unforgiven 2001
Austin gets his chance at revenge on Big Show in a Handicap Match with Shane O'Mac on Show's side. If Austin wins, he gets his WWF Title rematch. Of course, The Rattlesnake wins.

No Mercy 2001
It's Jericho-Austin II and this time No-DQ. Vince McMahon is in Austin's corner and assists his long time nemesis to victory as Austin regains the WWF Title.

Rebellion 2001
Let's throw in a UK PPV, as Austin retains his WWF Title against WWF traitor Big Show.

Survivor Series 2001
Between No Mercy and Survivor Series, Rock & Austin won and then lost the WWF Tag Titles. Austin leads Team WWF (Rock, Angle, Taker & Kane) against Team WCW (WCW Champ Jericho, Hardcore Champ RVD, Show, Booker & DDP) in the Winner Take All. As expected, it all comes down to Austin and Jericho. And as expected, Austin comes up short to some interference fuckery. That interference is by the returning Ric Flair, who bashes Austin with the WWF Title to give Jericho the victory and WCW control over WWF.

Starrcade 2001
With Flair in control of WWF, he makes the WWF December PPV the show he made famous: Starrcade. In the main event, Austin puts his title on the line in a 4-Way Elimination Match to unify the WCW & WWF titles against WCW Champ Jericho, Rock & Angle. Once AGAIN, Austin loses due to fuckery as Jericho successfully unifies both titles after pinning Stone Cold.

Royal Rumble 2002
HHH wins the Rumble, nothing to see here. Austin is the last guy eliminated though.

No Way Out 2002
Austin gets his last chance against Jericho for the now Undisputed Title inside a Steel Cage. Jericho tries to escape about a dozen times before Austin bloodies him. All of a sudden, Scott Hall & Kevin Nash come through the crowd , enter the cage and attack Austin. Then Hulk Hogan of all people walks down the aisle, enters the cage and beats on Austin too! Meanwhile, Jericho to slowly crawls out the cage door, retaining his championship. Hogan, Hall & Nash stare at each other for a moment and take their shirts off, revealing nWo t-shirts! The nWo is back and wants to take over the WWF, starting with Austin.

Wrestlemania 18
Austin. Versus. Hogan. The dream match finally comes true in the main event of Wrestlemania. Hogan does not Hulk Up, just heels it up. In the end, Hogan gets the victory after Hall & Nash cost Austin the match, leaving nWo standing tall as Wrestlemania fades to black.

Backlash 2002
The nWo causes reluctant allies to come together as Austin teams with The Undertaker, who defeated The Rock to extend his WM Streak, and Big Show, who is a last minute replacement for Ric Flair. Of course Big Show turns and joins the nWo. Austin & Taker lose the match.

Judgement Day 2002
Austin gets the opportunity to team with one of his idols, Ric Flair. Flair lost ownership at WM after the nWo turned on him in favor of Mr. McMahon in their Street Fight. Austin & Flair defeat Big Show & X-Pac.

King of the Ring 2002
Austin defeats another person who turned on Flair, Eddie Guerrero. A stare down with Brock Lesnar happens around this point.

Vengeance 2002
Another title match for Austin. This time a Triple Threat against old foe Rock and the WWE Champion Triple H, who ousted Hogan from the nWo with the help of his Kliq buddies Hall, Nash & X-Pac at in their title match at KOTR. No title win for Austin as Lesnar breaks up a pin attempt and attacks The Rattlesnake. Rock ends up pinning HHH to win after botched interference by Hall & Nash.

Summerslam 2002
Austin vs. Lesnar. Stone Cold puts up one hell of a fight, but is no match for the young beast Lesnar. Austin is not seen for months after this, much to the satisfaction of new RAW GM Eric Bischoff.

No Way Out 2003
Arrives. Kicks Eric Bischoff's ass. Leave.

Wrestlemania 19
The final match of Stone Cold Steve Austin's career is Austin-Hogan II with the loser being forced to retire. Vince McMahon is in Austin's corner, while Bischoff is in the Hulkster's. Austin ends his near decade-long vendetta against Hogan by pinning him clean. Hogan extends his hand to Austin after the match........Stunner. Bischoff tries to run but Vince catches him and drags him back........Stunner to Bischoff. Austin and Vince celebrate with beers.........and you're damn right Vince eats a Stunner.

RAW after WM 19
Stone Cold Steve Austin announces his retirement but then says he will be Co-General Manager of RAW. Eric Bischoff is PISSED.
 
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#6 · (Edited)
Quite like that dgenerationmc . . Good work man :)

I would go with Austin going over Rock at Mania but in a dirty/clean fashion. He gets the job done without any help but goes to lenghts that even JR in commentary questions. He beats the crap out of Rock like he did anyway but going even further leaving Rock so bloody it's sick!

With that look of anger and even disgust on Austin's face it tells a story of Steve losing control, going buzurk, going to lengths that even a badass like him has not gone to before because deep down he believes he doesn't have what it takes to get the job done anymore without cheating, just to get the job done . . . . because he wanted to become champion again more than anything in the world. They then go forward with "Did Austin go too far?"

The people are left shocked after Wrestlemania at the way Stone Cold went about becoming Champ, almost ending Rock's career

Rock takes time off as he did anyway and the Invasion angle doesn't begin until post Summerslam


Austin comes out on RAW after Mania and says he doesn't owe anybody an explanation and that he did what he had to do


Backlash - Taker has more than earned his Title Shot over the months and solidified it by beating The Game at Wrestlemania. Taker says to Austin lets see if you can get the job done on me. This now leads to a match at Backlash as face vs face meet in a battle of the biggest badasses in the WWF. Austin retains after a screwy finish thanks to HHH nailing Taker with the sledgehammer picking up their feud again (HHH goes over at JD)

Judgement Day - a dominant heel run has been built up since January when a rejuvenated, fitter, sharper, leaner (thanks to Shane'O) Big Show returns and plows through the roster leading to Austin where he faces Him for the WWF Title in a last man standing match.
Austin retains after yet again going buzurk, slaying the giant in a violent and bloody fashion.

King Of The Ring - Rematch from JD - Austin retains yet again after interference from Vince and his new guy Kurt Angle, to screw Show and Shane (picking up the Mcmahon feud from Mania)

Fully Loaded - Angle now gets a shot at the Rattlesnake's Title. Showing a vicious side, he runs Stone Cold close but Austin goes over with a little interference from Shane, but also suffers from interfernce thanks to The Game, and gets taken out brutally, thus picking up the feud again. Austin shows resilience and nicks the win. Now going into Summerslam he's looking a little vulnerable but at the same time looking tough to beat.

Summerslam - Rock returns and plays the rematch card but Triple H also has been on a strong run and brings up the fact that he beat Austin at NWO and defeated the Undertaker also. This now sets up one of the greatest matches we never saw . . . The Triple Threat between Stone Cold Steve Austin, The Rock and Triple H for the WWF Title. The Rock becomes Champion after pinning Austin (thus returning the favour)

The night after on RAW Vince States that tonight he will be signing the paperwork Live at the end of the show to ensure he know owns WCW.

Just as Vince thinks he's about to seal the deal, Linda comes out and says you were too late . . . You were beating to it and know the owner of WCW is this man!! . . . . . . . . . . . . ERIC BISCHOFF

The show closes and from here out the Invasion angle begins!!!!
 
#10 ·
I guess he would've feuded with the usual suspects: Triple H, Angle, Undertaker, Kane, The Rock.

It was a failure, but in hindsight the heel turn was probably for the best. The big story was going to be the Invasion. With all due respect to Booker T, he wasn't on par with Austin, The Rock or even Undertaker to be seen as the leader of the WCW threat. He was the champion sure, but his heel equivalent was Jeff Jarrett which says it all. Goldberg, Hogan, Nash or Sting could've pulled it off, Booker T couldn't. They needed that top name for the Alliance and Austin fit the profile.

Triple H would've been perfect as he was a big name and had a relationship with Stephanie that would've made it more believable. But he tore his quad and never got the chance.
 
#14 · (Edited)
My biggest problem with Austin heel turn is Triple H getting hurt and missing most of 2001. If he doesn't get hurt you can still do the their team and then slowly turn Triple H face towards the Summer. Run with Austin vs. HHH as your main program and put the Invasion storyline off until the big name players in WCW are ready to join the WWE in early 2002. Triple H being able to wrestle would have made a major difference to the Austin heel run.

If you don't turn Austin heel than you could probably switch it with Triple H as the heel and go from there.
 
#37 ·
The highest rated Raw segment in history was the overrun the night after the 1999 King of the Ring when Steve Austin beat the Undertaker for the WWF World Title.



The highest rated Raw QUARTER HOUR was for the Rock "This is Your Life" segment in Sept 1999


rom the July 31 2012 Wrestling Observer Newsletter:
"June 28, 1999: A match where Steve Austin won the WWF title from The Undertaker in Charlotte drew the largest rating and audience to ever witness a pro wrestling match or for that matter, any pro wrestling segment, ever on U.S. cable television. The match did a 9.5 rating, which was 10.72 million viewers. Perhaps the most impressive is that one out of every six television sets in the U.S. that had cable that was on during that time was watching that match. Because for more than a decade, Vince Russo has made it a talking point to say how the “The Is Your Life: Rock,” segment was the highest rated segment in history (it did an 8.4 quarter), to show how skits outdraw matches, it’s become a talking point how that was the highest rated segment in Raw history. Actually there were a handful of different quarter hours that beat that total, including most of the second hour of the May 10, 1999 show."


Austin has the highest raw segment ever and was the one to break Hogans gates numbers

CHECKMATE
 
#39 · (Edited)
The highest rated Raw segment in history was the overrun the night after the 1999 King of the Ring when Steve Austin beat the Undertaker for the WWF World Title.
See folks, BM has lost against the provided facts and failed my challenge:
I dare you to show me how the following proves Austin is a "draw":
So now BM is resorting to using Overruns in a last ditch effort, Sorry Birthday Massacre:

The 9.5 rating from June 28, 1999(Night after King of The Ring) was an Overrun, therefore not a segment, as people were tuning in for the next show that was supposed to be airing and not WWF Raw.

According to source → indeedwrestling.blogspot.com/2014/05/raw-nitro-quarter-hours-1999.html

Even more interesting, Before the Undertaker/Austin match, WWF Raw had a 7.3 rating, later on Austin/Undertaker match turned off viewers and led to a 7.1 rating. Raw Overran it's timeslot, so it got an Overrun rating of 9.5 drawn by whatever the next show was(Next show therefore drew a 2.3)

Even more interesting is the fact that the 7.1 rating derives from the earlier 7.3 rating, so not only did Austin/Undertaker not draw that 7.1, but also they lost viewers/tuned people out when they took that 7.3 to a 7.1.

Whereas the Highest Rated Segment in Raw history is “This is your life” with a 8.4 Non-Overrun(Therefore segment), which lost viewers when Mankind started giving presents/because of Mankind → slashwrestling.com/raw/990927.html

The Rock not only drew a 8.4 that night, but on May 1st 2000, Rock drew a 7.9 with his first promo after Backlash, and he also drew an 8.3 against Shane Mcmahon later in the night. slashwrestling.com/raw/000501.html

Checkmate, your argument is refuted.
 
#71 ·
While I'm certainly not making the point that Austin wasn't a draw Dude Love vs Austin failed because it was a pretty poor *** feud. Back to back has nothing to do with it. Batista v HHH dramatically increased from the 3rd rematch compared to the 2nd one granted it's Hell in the Cell. It's all about the storyline and that's where Dude Love vs Austin failed. It just wasn't that good of a feud.

While this can't be proven I actually agree with RLStern on this one instance that Kane vs Undertaker Inferno Match had more drawing power to it. Once that ended and Austin v Dude Love had to carry the show it underachieved. It always takes 2 to tango and Foley just wasn't there until after HITC and those hospital segments with Vince.
 
#73 · (Edited)
A) My main point was that RLStern's opinion was just that, an opinion, and not a "fact" as he touts. And, since you said "While this can't be proven..." you can't be agreeing with him on his position that it is a fact.

B) HHH/Batista is the exception to the rule, and pretty much every example provided by RLStern was a feud that saw decreased buys as it went on. That's the typical pattern. Who knows what would have happened had they done Austin vs Dude Love III? King of the Ring '98 did pretty well.

EDIT: Unforgiven '98 also had the novelty of it being Austin's first title defense on PPV, and if you're saying that's not a draw to go along with the Inferno Match simply because the rematch against the same opponent the next month didn't do well, that's really not factoring everything in.
 
#93 · (Edited)
Rock going back with McMahon would make zero sense in 2001. The relationship since the end of the Corporation was non-existant and it was more heated as time went on storyline wise. The Rock HATED the McMahons by that point. Shane/Stephanie/Vince. Unlike Austin who primarily only hated Vince, Rock hated ALL OF THEM. And they hated him right back.

But in saying that I loved The Corporation, and loved when Rock was with Vince and Shane. But that boat was never coming back.
 
#131 · (Edited)
Goldberg/Nash was the only time Goldberg actually got to headline as champion on PPV without Hogan messing things up for him and it drew pretty well. It was really the only data we have on how Goldberg drew as champion on PPV. It's no wonder Hogan wanted the belt back immediately after that.

Just like when Bret Hart vs Ric Flair drew well at Souled Out '98 without Hogan, and Hogan immediately started sabotaging Bret.

I think Flair/Bischoff helped a lot, and was probably the hottest feud going into it, but people bought that Nash could end the Streak and that had to help the Starrcade '98 buys.
 
#163 · (Edited)
I think what Austin fans fail to get is Rock and Foley (Foley gets a huge shaft in all these discussions) are a big reason why fans jumped ship from WCW to WWF. Before they got pushed it's an even dog fight between the companies. 2 weeks after they got the belt it's all WWF from then on out. Foley was the king of hardcore matches and really embodied the era. Rock is a minority superstar aimed at jocks in a crowd full of high school kids. You weren't in high school if you didn't know about Rock's popularity from really the second he got pushed onto the ME scene. Either that or you're an overseas fans and you don't really count anyways.

Once Rock got pushed they were pretty much in Warrior Hogan or Goldberg NWO territory. One is diminishing returns, the other is a fresh emerging mega superstar. Every time you go back to Austin creative is going to go to a stand still. You've already peaked with him. By late 99 it was pretty apparent what had to be done. Luckily Austin got hurt and Rock could take over without anyone's feelings being hurt but it was the inevitable. The product actually continued to grow in 2000 and if it wasn't for the switch to TNN they would of broke the ratings records as well as the ppv records.

Austin's return really showed their combined drawing power. Neither Rock or Austin would hit 1 million buys on their own. Maybe a Austin v Goldberg at it's peak could hit that # too, but that's it. Then Rock has a foot out the door which leads to the collapse. They make the mistake of turning Austin as well.
 
#164 ·
I think what Austin fans fail to get is Rock and Foley (Foley gets a huge shaft in all these discussions) are a big reason why fans jumped ship from WCW to WWF. Before they got pushed it's an even dog fight between the companies. 2 weeks after they got the belt it's all WWF from then on out. Foley was the king of hardcore matches and really embodied the era. Rock is a minority superstar aimed at jocks in a crowd full of high school kids. You weren't in high school if you didn't know about Rock's popularity from really the second he got pushed onto the ME scene. Either that or you're an overseas fans and you don't really count anyways.

Once Rock got pushed they were pretty much in Warrior Hogan or Goldberg NWO territory. One is diminishing returns, the other is a fresh emerging mega superstar. Every time you go back to Austin creative is going to go to a stand still. You've already peaked with him. By late 99 it was pretty apparent what had to be done. Luckily Austin got hurt and Rock could take over without anyone's feelings being hurt but it was the inevitable. The product actually continued to grow in 2000 and if it wasn't for the switch to TNN they would of broke the ratings records as well as the ppv records.

Austin's return really showed their combined drawing power. Then Rock has a foot out the door which leads to the collapse. They make the mistake of turning Austin as well.
I want to know when Austin fans think the war was won. Do they think it's at WM 14 or something? LOL, that's how they portray it in their posts.
 
#2 ·
Suppositions are wasteful. I don't know what they would have done had he stayed face, nor do I feel it's helpful for us to imagine.

With hindsight 20-20, we can clearly say that the heel turn was a mistake; even Austin in his book says that he regrets it. But on paper, the reasoning for the character change was sound.

Austin as a face had already feuded with heel Undertaker, heel Kane, heel Triple H, and (most of all) heel Vince McMahon. You might argue that they could have stretched his rivalry with Triple H some more, but I think they were already planning a Triple H Face turn by the end of the year. Benoit and Jericho weren't going to turn heel yet. That left just face Austin vs heel Angle, which could last about 1 or 2 months.

On the other hand, Austin as heel opened up heel Austin vs face Undertaker, heel Austin vs face Kane, heel Austin vs Face Jericho, heel Austin vs face Benoit, heel Austin vs face Angle, and heel Austin vs face Triple H. With so many legitimately fresh feuds available after the heel turn, it seemed wise to pull the trigger.

Austin as the unstoppable, hell-raising, DTA character had already gone 4 years. If he stayed face, he would most likely do the same things that he always did since 1998 -- drink beer, stunner people, drive into the arena on his pick-up truck, flip the birds at his opponents. We already saw him do those things.

If he turned heel, however, the possibilities seemed endless, as we hadn't seen the Rattlesnake on the bad side since 1997. Austin as a heel was a million times more interesting than Austin as a face, in other words.

It didn't work, obviously, but sometimes storylines go that way. I would also argue that Austin's heel turn failed somewhat on the back of wrestling's overall decline following the WCW buyout/End of the Attitude Era.
 
#22 ·
Austin as the unstoppable, hell-raising, DTA character had already gone 4 years. If he stayed face, he would most likely do the same things that he always did since 1998 -- drink beer, stunner people, drive into the arena on his pick-up truck, flip the birds at his opponents. We already saw him do those things.
Which is why he needed to lose.

Austin was Hogan going into mania, Rock was Warrior. Even though their peaks were only a year or so apart, Rock was the one with more momentum to gain. Plus Austin had already beat Rock at mania. No sense in having him beat him again right? Don't you want these 2 to keep drawing in the future? Shouldn't we give Rock a win here and draw even more come time for the rubber match?



Austin as the unstoppable, hell-raising, DTA character had already gone 4 years.
Key word.

He won all his feuds, he won his matches, and he almost always got the last laugh. But what if on one night, Superman couldn't save the day?

We never saw Austin put in that vulnerable position before. That would have added at least another year or 2 to the shelf life of Steve's gimmick. Now he can mingle around in the upper card, still be the fan favorite that everyone loves, and begin his journey back to the top where he would not doubt meet Rock again for the title. This time with a vengeance.
 
#4 · (Edited)
I've never understood the logic behind Austin accepting Vince McMahon's help and then turning on him afterwards. That is a heel turn right there. That's admitting he's not good enough to beat Rock 1-1 so he accepts help to beat him from his biggest rival nonetheless. There's no spinning that it is a heel turn. From there it's restarting a rivalry no one even cares about anymore. It's played out.

To me it's Austin turns or wins relatively clean. Option 2 was the better option since Rock wasn't even around until Summerslam but with that it leads to an inevitability as well. Rock has to turn now. Unless you actually have Goldberg, Sting, NWO, etc I think you're pretty much forced putting Rock and Austin on separate sides and having them finish their feud like that.

I actually think it would of played out better if they had Rock turn in favor of WCW but that's something we'll never know.
 
#8 · (Edited)
I've never understood the logic behind Austin accepting Vince McMahon's help and then turning on him afterwards. That is a heel turn right there. That's admitting he's not good enough to beat Rock 1-1 so he accepts help to beat him from his biggest rival nonetheless. There's no spinning that it is a heel turn. From there it's restarting a rivalry no one even cares about anymore. It's played out.
I have to disagree there. It's more like a complicated, behind the curtain storyline. Much of the story would have to be explained by Austin after WM. After returning from injury, he was mentally shot. Finding out who ran him over didn't help him in the head either. Add that to Austin being determined/obsessed with being WWF Champion again and proving his worth, and you have a very evil cocktail.

So, from there McMahon sees the opportunity to get in Austin's head, which he's never been able to do before. This is Vince McMahon's one chance to get Stone Cold Steve Austin on his side. He and Austin set up their plan leading to Mania, which would explain the last minute adding of the No-DQ stip. Austin being Austin can see what Vince is trying to do and plays along with it because it'll get him the title just in case he can't take out Rock on his own, going back to him doubting his ability post-injury.

And yeah, it is a very heelish thing of Austin to do. But, then again Austin became the icon he is today by doing these heelish and the crowd fucking loved him for it. When Austin beat the shit out of Rock, people still cheered that night and months after. Plus, do you really think Vince would get sympathy for Austin simply using him like a two-bit whore? Nope. Stone Cold Steve Austin never stood for truth and justice and all that shit. He stood for raising hell and getting what he wants on his terms.
 
#5 ·
I was wondering about this myself a few weeks ago. Austin himself I think has admitted that in hindsight, it wasn't a good idea for him to turn heel when he did. I do wonder how things would have shaken out if he'd stayed a face, not just in terms of storylines, but also how the business would have faired.
 
#7 · (Edited)
Backlash - Triple H & The Undertaker in a Triple Threat match
The Rock has taken a break for Hollywood, Triple H wants a shot at the title since he beat Austin at No Way Out. Undertaker interrupts and says he should get the shot since he beat Triple H at Wrestlemania. Triple Threat is set up.

Judgment Day - Triple H in a Hell in a Cell match.
Undertaker is out of the title picture, leaving Austin and Trips to settle it again, this time in Hell in a Cell. Austin retains the belt.

King Of The Ring - Kurt Angle
The rivalry with Triple H is over, Kurt has finished his feud with Benoit and retrieved his Gold Medals back, he goes on to face Austin for the title next. Booker T interferes in the match, same way he did at King Of The Ring.

Fully Loaded - Booker T
Same idea as OP.

Summerslam - The Rock
The Rock returns from Hollywood, gets his Wrestlemania rematch with Austin. Triple H interferes in the match and costs Austin the belt.

Unforgiven - The Rock & Triple H in a Triple Threat match
We have the dream match finally for the belt. Rock retains the belt though.

No Mercy - Chris Jericho
Jericho has turned heel and Austin has moved into a co-main event programme with him, while Rock defends the belt against maybe Angle, Triple H, Booker, a heel Undertaker or a heel Benoit in the main event for the next two months.

Survivor Series - Team Austin vs. Team Jericho
Continuing the co-main event feud between the two in a traditional Survivor Series match. Give Team Jericho the win here I say.

Vengeance - Austin, Rock, Triple H, Jericho, Angle & Undertaker/RVD/Booker/Benoit in a Six Pack Challenge for the WWF Title
Jericho wins the title and gets to brag about beating 6 of the best AE stars instead of just Austin & Rock for years to come.
 
#9 ·
Haha it's funny because I have no real problems with the heel turn, although I can certainly understand why so many others are unhappy with it.. But I just thought some of the shit he did was hilarious with Vince and Angle and the alliance.

But I was also bored of Steve Austin as a babyface, because even as a kid I was usually rooting for the heels as they were my favourite characters, such as HBK, Kane, Mick Foley, when they were feuding with Stone Cold. And since Austin was always beating my favourite guys at the time I thought of him as a Super-Cena type back then and was always rooting against him which pissed my brother off, because he was like WTF why do you want McMahon to beat Austin? Lol

I just remember being so fucking pissed when Kane won the title and dropped it the next night to Austin. That was one of the defining moments when I started to hate him, especially since it was shortly after he beat HBK in what would be his last match for years. So basically, my opinion of the heel turn is completely biased and I know I only disliked Austin for personal reasons, but I do think he is without a doubt one of the best the business will ever see.
 
#21 ·
Numbers are anything but concrete. It all depends on what time their segments were in and who else was involved, etc. Even then, ratings don't always equate to money drawn elsewhere (merchandise, PPVs, tickets, etc.) It's a complicated subject that can be highly debated.

Regardless, do not turn this thread into yet another Austin/Rock mark war. We've had enough of those already.
 
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