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REAL heels vs IWC heels

6K views 55 replies 40 participants last post by  Boygirl 
#1 ·
I think most smarks do not understand the purpose of a heel. #

A heel is supposed to get heel heat (duh). You are supposed to dislike him and want to see him get beat. And he's supposed to get the face over.

An example of a good heel is Hollywood Hogan.

Now lets look at an "IWC" heel. The IWC heel is basically a smark maturbatory fantasy. They do all the things you wish you could do in real life and get away with it.
They "tell uncomfortable truths" on the mic, when in actual fact heels are supposed to be liars and hypocrites. This can cause them to get face heat and make fans boo the guy who is supposed to be face.

An example of a terrible heel is CM Punk 2011-2012

Punk and his fanbase are the cancer that is killing wrestling. Ask youself, who has Punk actually put over since he turned heel? No one. He failed at the no1 job of being a heel. If you consider Punk a "great heel" you are a bad person.

Listen to Al Snow he makes some good points
 
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#13 ·
If I was 10 years old I would agree with you, but the fact of the matter is that the days of Good vs. Evil are passé. I've grown up. I don't see the World as black and white anymore.

CM Punk's character maybe the biggest asshole around, but the fact of the matter is that he's 100% honest about it. On the other hand you have a character like John Cena who preaches about rising above hate, and hustle, loyalty and respect, yet he's the biggest sore loser around. He fairly lost a ladder match at TLC, then the next night on RAW he goes out and costs Dolph Ziggler the world title. That's not respectful at all. Cena in actuality is the biggest heel around. I always think back to the I Quit match that he had with Batista at Over The Limit in 2010. After Cena won the match, he still decided to AA Batista off a car and through the stage. Then he plays it off like nothing happened. He almost kills a guy, then he thinks he can still be a "Good Guy". It doesn't work that way.
 
#17 ·
Cena's not a heel. AAing Batista after the match was over is a good example... and it probably stands alone, and was probably done precisely to please his detractors. He's the ultimate good guy. Been watching since 2000, and I've never seen someone more humble than John Cena. The problem ppl have with Cena is that he's boring and predictable, which is precisely because he's always nice. THe biggest sore loser? When was he a sore loser? Ziggler didn't win fair, AJ helped him. And stopping Ziggler from cashing in? Give me a break, every MITB ambush is unfair, Ziggler's included, you're just a Ziggler fan (like me). I'll cheer for a lot of heels against Cena, too, but I don't kid myself. Cena's a good guy. All he talks about is hard work and doing the right thing, and then he goes out and does it. He refused to use the MITB as an ambush! He was honorable about it! Any ROH marks out there? Or ppl who just think MITB ambushes are a load of crap, like me? How do you like that?
 
#21 ·
Don't really see where this thread is going other than the "I don' like Punk and the world needs to know even though it's in every one of my posts" circlejerk.

What about heels like Jericho and JBL that the internet generally likes and also do everything they can to be hated? See what I did there? Didn't collectively say that everyone on the internet is under one name and all share the same opinion.

The IWC is the fucking worst term on this site other than buried.

And I still think a heel's top job is just to piss off the crowd.
 
#27 · (Edited)
I think most smarks do not understand the purpose of a heel. #

A heel is supposed to get heel heat (duh). You are supposed to dislike him and want to see him get beat. And he's supposed to get the face over.

An example of a good heel is Hollywood Hogan.

Now lets look at an "IWC" heel. The IWC heel is basically a smark maturbatory fantasy. They do all the things you wish you could do in real life and get away with it.
They "tell uncomfortable truths" on the mic, when in actual fact heels are supposed to be liars and hypocrites. This can cause them to get face heat and make fans boo the guy who is supposed to be face.

An example of a terrible heel is CM Punk 2011-2012

Punk and his fanbase are the cancer that is killing wrestling. Ask youself, who has Punk actually put over since he turned heel? No one. He failed at the no1 job of being a heel. If you consider Punk a "great heel" you are a bad person.

Listen to Al Snow he makes some good points

What? How can Punk put people over when no one has even put him over cleanly himself, he man isnt even established yet as a top man. Even if we are talkign about Punk putting people over, have you see his win/loss record last year?. He isnt even even a veteran in the WWE the only people putting people over in the WWe right now should be Rock, Cena, Triple and to a lesser extent Orton, you know veterans who have had experience.

And how can you say CM Punk is the worst example of a heel when Chris Jericho was getting the same reaction from fans in the attitude era... People were cheering Jericho when he was a heel and used the same promo techniques that CM Punk has been using...

I was actually liking your post until you went to blind hating...

But on a lighter note I agree heels are supposed to be boo'ed over cheered but WWE cant make likable faces right now, John Cena, Sheamus and even CM Punk as a face were horrible because there was way too much pandering to the audience. hardcore fans dont like that sort of thing, they want someone who can get down to business a smug arrogant face who can pretty much tell it, not how it is, but how they feel it is so the fans can eat it up. Basically its a anti-hero character that WWe havent done for years.

WWE tends to change the character of the heel when they become face. WWe need to remember that why we liked them in the first place was because of who they were as a heel,, there's no need to give them a complete overhaul.

In my opinion WWE should just get rid of heels and faces and have the WWe universe boo and cheer whoever they want, hell Cena is the prime example of that :p
 
#47 ·
I'm so ith you there. I love Punk and a lot of other heels, but Jericho was just a slimy bastard. His face and heel personas are SOOOO different, I wanted to see his head torn off, and only during commercial breaks do I remember how great Jericho is.
 
#31 ·
I used to cheer faces and boo all the heels when I was much younger, but now I cheer who I like, no matter what they are. And I don't care who falls under the category of a "IWC heel." I don't read dirtsheets and then choose to boo that guy based on some rumor or gossip. I don't care if that person is an asskisser or asshole offscreen either. End of the day, if they entertain me, I would probably cheer them. Hell, Rock vs. Punk is a dream match for this reason, two of my favorite wrestlers going at it. I gotta be neutral on this one cuz I like them both so much. And I don't do bandwagons, otherwise I would love Ryback, but he bores the shit outta me so I boo his sorry ass every chance I get.
 
#35 ·
The IWC like the cool heels like Punk because they're edgy and interesting... once upon a time we got faces like that but nowadays the faces are lame - hence we gravitate towards the heels. Austin is the best example, guy was a total fucking badass who in another era would have been a heel through and through - but people loved that attitude and he was the hottest babyface of all time.

Nowadays we have guys like Cena and Sheamus running around making the lamest jokes on the planet and smiling when they get beaten like it's no big thang. Austin got screwed out of titles constantly, you know what he did? He came out on Raw and raised Hell over it.

Smarkier fans are cheering these heels because they're as close as we get to that edgier attitude. Give us a kick ass face who we want to get behind and we'll boo the shit out of the heels happily.
 
#38 ·
The OP is spot on.

A lot of IWC fans just don't get it. You hear them get upset when they see their hero's like Punk behave cowardly or cheat to win a match. That's what he's suppose to do FFS. Remember Triple H in 2000? One of the greatest heels ever in my opinion, and he was the biggest asshole on the face of the earth; abusing power, cheating to win matches, telling lies, insulting fans, he did it all. He's the perfect example of what a heel should be. But instead you get IWC fans crying out for tweener like heels, guys that tell it how it is and win matches cleanly. They serve no purpose whatsoever and only exist for IWC fans to jack off to.
 
#40 · (Edited)
I've said it once and i'll say it again, Al Snow is a golddigging a** hat he doesnt care for consumers

Feel free to join us in the 21st century when you're ready
 
#51 ·
Actually Punk IS a great heel, the amount of smarks just increased around the past year, stupid and idiot ones too.

The reason that Punk isn't hated as he should be is because he was the underdog in almost all his feuds and matches and people root for the underdog. Also a lot of members of Cenation had their balls dropped and realized that Cena isn't great as he's supposed to be, so who did they turn to? Cena's arch enemy, CM Punk.

People, Punk's fans believe by cheering him, they're helping him and showing him support whereas they should boo him even though their a fan of his, this way he has done his job well, gets to put over face talent and go down as one of the greatest heels in history.
 
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#52 · (Edited)
WWE have just become shit at making likeble faces and hateble heels. TNA do a much better job at this, disproving the notion that it's impossible to make good faces and heels in the traditional sense in this modern era. Look at Bobby Roode for example.. he gets pure heel heat, despite the fact he is over with the IWC.. or James Storm, who has got himself over as a top face in the past year or so with great mic work. While WWE keep making Sheamus do jokes about his Uncle Paddy and Cena making poop jokes, fans will continue to rally behind guys like Punk and Ziggler.

This is exactly the reason Austin broke out in 1997.. he started as a heel, but his badass attitude was getting him the biggest pops in the arenas. Similarly, Bret Hart was getting booed well before his heel turn, as fans had grown sick of his tired babyface act. That's why the double turn at WM13 went so smoothly. People forget Bret and Austin were already getting booed and cheered respectively before they went into the match.

I think this is the reason why Ryback has been such a success, too. His gimmick is that he doesn't give a fuck and just wants to destroy everyone in sight. He doesn't need to cut a 20 minute promo with jokes to get over, or even say anything.. the Goldberg comparisons are true, even beyond the streak, the power moves and the bald/goatee image.. Goldberg didn't have to say a word and he had the fans in the palm of his hand. Ryback, despite some dodgy booking decisions since HIAC and beyond, will be a mega star if he continues on in this fashion. He really needs a huge win to elevate him up to the top tier now though - it should have come already.
 
#56 ·
WWE have just become shit at making likeble faces and hateble heels. TNA do a much better job at this, disproving the notion that it's impossible to make good faces and heels in the traditional sense in this modern era. Look at Bobby Roode for example.. he gets pure heel heat, despite the fact he is over with the IWC.. or James Storm, who has got himself over as a top face in the past year or so with great mic work. While WWE keep making Sheamus do jokes about his Uncle Paddy and Cena making poop jokes, fans will continue to rally behind guys like Punk and Ziggler.
In contrast to Punk, I believe Bobby Roode is an underrated heel and should have won the Heel of the Year Award in 2012. And he's not much over by the IWC either.

But I do agree that Punk is an effective heel in some way that splits 50/50 cheers and boo's from the fans. Much like Cena's polarizing chants. This is why Punk/Cena jives very well together and could have had a longer and more epic feud.
 
#6 ·
Ryback, The Shield, Brad Maddox.
 
#20 ·
I'd say The Shield pretty much got themselves over by just being badasses. Punk (and Cena by extension) were very instrumental in getting Ryback over. I mean, he was over before but the contract signing is what really shot him off to the moon.

As for Maddox, oh come on! Everyone knows The Brad Maddox was born over! lol.
 
#8 ·
I think most smarks do not understand the purpose of a heel. #

A heel is supposed to get heel heat (duh). You are supposed to dislike him and want to see him get beat. And he's supposed to get the face over.

An example of a good heel is Hollywood Hogan.

Now lets look at an "IWC" heel. The IWC heel is basically a smark maturbatory fantasy. They do all the things you wish you could do in real life and get away with it.
They "tell uncomfortable truths" on the mic, when in actual fact heels are supposed to be liars and hypocrites. This can cause them to get face heat and make fans boo the guy who is supposed to be face.

An example of a terrible heel is CM Punk 2011-2012

Punk and his fanbase are the cancer that is killing wrestling. Ask youself, who has Punk actually put over since he turned heel? No one. He failed at the no1 job of being a heel. If you consider Punk a "great heel" you are a bad person.

Listen to Al Snow he makes some good points
Wasn't punk a face during these times?



Sent from my iPhone using Verticalsports.com App
 
#9 · (Edited)
Listen, we watch to enjoy. If I didn't like some of the heels, my only fave wrestlers would be Sheamus and more recently Alberto Del Rio. But, I also cheer for Dolph Ziggler, CM Punk, and Antonio Cesaro. I don't know if this demonstrates a horrible lack of faces, or that there are just some really talented heels, but it doesn't just make wrestling watchable for me, it makes me love the product.

Cheering for heels is the difference between me enjoying the product and bitching that every Raw/SmackDown is the worst its ever been. I can see where people are coming from. Cena's for kids (though I respect the guy), Orton is meaningless to me, Ryback isn't ready for the main event (I do think he's awesome, though). Kofi doesn't really play a character. But, if you throw in heels, you're throwing in some amazing talents.

Remember, this is the era of the marks; we all know what's going on. No matter how good the faces are, we're not gonna wanna reach over and beat up a heel. So if we respect a guy, and look at a guy like Ziggler and just see that he's got it ALL, why not enjoy wrestling that way? They sell us Ziggler and Punk t-shirts, heck Miz even has a t-shirt (going back to his heel days) saying "haters love me." The product should never turn them into tweeners, they should always play despicable bastards to make the stories work for the ppl who watch it 'the proper way' (you definitely have a point), but if people wanna cheer for the despicable bastards it's not gonna hurt anybody. I cheer for Sheamus against Punk despite Punk being my fave wrestler, and I'd do the same with a lot of other faces, but against Cena and Ryback? Its Punk all the way. Ziggler's the same way to me.

Besides, anyone remember the nWo? That got popular when ppl hated them too, but it was HUGELY popular. People wanted to identify with the bad guys. I personally think Punk is much more enjoyable as a heel, whether I agree with the content of his worked shoot promos or not; we fell in love with him during the big June 2011 promo when he was a 100% heel. Guys like Punk and Ziggler are why I love pro wrestling, precisely because of how they're acting now. I'd love to see if Ziggler could play an anti-hero face, but for now I like him the way he is.
 
#10 ·
I have no problem rooting for John Cena over Dolph Ziggler. I like john Cena; like everyone knows, he's a nice guy, grants wishes, hard worker. But when I'm forced to do it every episode for the past 7 years (more?) I don't like it. Obviously a lot of others, not just IWC, don't like it either. It's not the just the IWC chanting Cena sucks.

If I was at a live event, I'd boo a heel and cheer a face. no problem (boo him until they make him interesting). But since this site means absolutely nothing to the wrestling industry or has any effect on what Vince will do next, we can and should say what we actually think of a wrestler.

Liking John Cena for beinf a nice guy, hard worker, etc. is no different than liking Ziggler for being a nice guy, hard worker, etc. we know one has to lose and one has to lose.
 
#11 ·
Agreed with just about everything Al Snow said there.

Never really liked him too much, but my respect for his opinion went up 10x.

I didn't know about the "7 steps" thing, but it pretty much makes sense of what I've been thinking about WWE matched for years. So many of these matches seem exactly the same and just end up really boring. Hard to give a shit anymore.

It's no surprise people care about mic talking more than matches since matches are generally slothy, go-through-the-motions deals that are usually overall boring.

He also said some shit I've been trying to say for awhile. pro wrestling is about making money. It's acting to make money. Not to do hammerlocks and drop toe holds and shit. It's to be exciting and get new people to want to watch and keep the people who just watched coming back.

. . .not to do hammerlocks and octopus stretches and shit.
 
#14 ·
Punk has feuded with Cena and Ryback as a heel. I don't even need to mention why saying Punk needs to get Cena over is a ridiculous statement, and the whole issue with his series against Ryback is booking, which is out of his control.

Also, it's entertaining, which is why I watch wrestling in the first place. So... It's not terrible.
 
#15 ·
I cheer for whoever is a good wrestler, and who entertains me. I like more heels than faces. CM Punk, Dolph Ziggler, Cody Rhodes, Damien Sandow, Antonio Cesaro, etc. I don't care if you are a heel or face, if you are good in the ring and entertaining, than I will cheer for you.
 
#16 ·
Keep in mind the two biggest IWC darling heels of all time: Chris Jericho and Triple H. I dare you to say either one of them wasn't over as a heel.
 
#18 ·
I argue with people all the time over this.. people say CM Punk cheats to win, he can't win a match on his own... well duh.. don't they realize Punk is a heel and heels cheat to win. He's been Champion for 418 days, I could care a less if he cheats to win his matches. HEELS CHEAT :D:


If you're not cheating then you're not trying - Eddie Guerrero
 
#19 ·
im tired of repeating my self on here recently about this but

SOCIETY AND THE BIZ HAS CHANGED
 
#22 ·
Even though the OP's points are flawed, CM Punk's mic skills will always be overrated to me. Basically, all he spouts come from smark ranters with a touch of wit and balls!
 
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