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Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

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#1 ·
#8,141 ·
Most Overrated- The Undertaker vs Triple Hell In A Cell- Wrestlemania 28
A lot of people complain about HIAC matches not utilizing the structure much these days. Yet somehow, for a match that featured probably about 2 cell spots, a lot of people have being handing out 5 snowflakes and MOTY left and right. This match could have told the same story had it been a regular no DQ match. The selling points here were the 20 or so chair shots from HHH, not using the cell as a weapon. Was it an emotional match? Of course. But the cell seemed obsolete after the first 5 minutes. And this is a Hell In A Cell match. Maybe if it was a chairs match I would have considered it MOTY or even a MOTYC. The cell just served no purpose and the match could have been done without it, that's why I'm hard on this match.

***1/2


I really can't think of a most underrated match. A lot of matches get the recognition that they deserve around here.

As for my personal favourite, that's a tough one. While 2012 have been a very good year for wrestling in WWE, no match really jumps out from the rest. Maybe CM Punk vs John Cena MITB spoiled me. That match just really stood out from the rest and blew everything out the water. But this year, there have been some great matches but nothing really stands out. The match I really, really enjoyed this year though was CM Punk vs Daniel Bryan from Super Smackdown.
 
#8,143 ·
I never really get the whole argument about the cell not being used. The purpose of a HIAC match is to simply keep people INSIDE. Nothing more.
To me I see no reason in digging for weapons under the ring when you got this entire 20 foot mesh of steel as a weapon to use. The Cell keeps them inside, and hurts the shit out of them too. It's like a cage match. Would you watch a cage match just to see two guys go technical in it? Of course not. The cage would have served no purpose, then.

But i always say that the HIAC is what the cage match should have been. Two people locked inside, with no chance of escaping yet somehow the participants always see the need to go outside. Why? I'll never understand.

Speaking of HIAC, am I the only one that enjoyed Punk/Ryback for what is was? You know what, I'll go with that as my most underrated match. It told a damn great story and utilized the cell (given the time, it made good use of it). Sure, it's one of the worst HIAC Matches of all time (mostly because of the ending) but it was exciting and well paced.

I loved seeing Punk desperately struggle to escape the cell. Really drives home the point of being locked inside with someone with no escape. I give it 3 stars to be honest. So there you have it, my most underrated match of the year. CM Punk vs Ryback Hell In A Cell. Underrated because a lot of peoepl can't seem to get past the fucked up booking.
 
#8,144 ·
Please tell me you were exaggerating.
To an extent, yeah. I just don't care for tag matches usually because it's always the same shit. Some back and forth action, a couple of tags then face starts getting beat down by the heels for 10 minutes, he gets close to tagging his partner but for some unknown reason, ref turns around at the last minute which brings the face back into the heels corner, then he manages to put them down with an Enziguri, DDT or something and finally the hot tag comes with the fresh partner who destroys every heel in sight. Then everybody gets involved inside the ring and the faces usually win by performing their finishers. That's how 99% of tag matches go and I am about to fall asleep most of the time when the heels are in control. Such a played out formula. But that doesn't mean I can't enjoy exciting tag matches that are a bit better paced and feature more action such as Austin/HHH vs Jericho/Benoit, which is one of my favorite matches ever.

Most overrated WWE match in 2012 (thus far) ?
Most underrated WWE match in 2012 (thus far) ?

PERSONAL favorite (NOT the best) ?

SHOOT.
Most overrated: CM Punk vs Daniel Bryan (Money in the Bank) - ** - HATE that match. SuperPunk in full effect and all that bullshit with AJ just ruins it for me. I would also say their OTL match but I can see why somebody would rate it highly.

Most underrated: Kane vs Randy Orton (Extreme Rules) - ***1/2 - A very good match that gets overlooked by the superior Sheamus/Bryan & Lesnar/Cena matches. Would have gotten more recognition in a lesser PPV most likely.

Personal favorite: The Rock vs John Cena - **** - I don't know about everyone else but I loved this match. Crowd is on fire and the match has that big time feel. Rock runs out of energy pretty fast which leads to some restholds but it didn't bother me much. I was just enjoying the picture of two greats going at it. And the finish is also the definition of a "feel good" one for me, unlike 95% of the great matches this year.
 
#8,145 ·
Most overrated: CM Punk vs Daniel Bryan (Money in the Bank) - ** - HATE that match. SuperPunk in full effect and all that bullshit with AJ just ruins it for me. I would also say their OTL match but I can see why somebody would rate it highly.

Most underrated: Kane vs Randy Orton (Extreme Rules) - ***1/2 - A very good match that gets overlooked by the superior Sheamus/Bryan & Lesnar/Cena matches. Would have gotten more recognition in a lesser PPV most likely.

Personal favorite: The Rock vs John Cena - **** - I don't know about everyone else but I loved this match. Crowd is on fire and the match has that big time feel. Rock runs out of energy pretty fast which leads to some restholds but it didn't bother me much. I was just enjoying the picture of two greats going at it. And the finish is also the definition of a "feel good" one for me, unlike 95% of the great matches this year.
Finally someone else who sees Punk's face run as a complete Super-Man run. The worst was TLC 2011 for me though. Punk's Superman performance in TLC 2011 gives Austin's Superman performance in NWO '98 a run for its money.I also find the punk/D-Bryan series to be overrated (except for the Super Smackdown match, enjoyed that one) I don't even remember their OTL match and I'm sure I saw it about 2 times.

Rock vs Cena, I shat on it alot initially but after giving it a second watch I gave a nice little rating of ***3/4. It was a good wrestling match. I was expecting an all out brawl from these two but they went out there and put on more of a slow paced, methodical match. It caught of everyone off guard.

Given the build, it was a shitty way to go about it but it's not that bad of a wrestling match. Just nowhere near my favourites of all time though or this year as a matter of fact lol. Can't say I agree with you on the finish being a "feel good moment" I wanted Cena to over. Hey, what can I say. I'm a huge Cena mark.
 
#8,146 ·
To an extent, yeah. I just don't care for tag matches usually because it's always the same shit. Some back and forth action, a couple of tags then face starts getting beat down by the heels for 10 minutes, he gets close to tagging his partner but for some unknown reason, ref turns around at the last minute which brings the face back into the heels corner, then he manages to put them down with an Enziguri, DDT or something and finally the hot tag comes with the fresh partner who destroys every heel in sight. Then everybody gets involved inside the ring and the faces usually win by performing their finishers. That's how 99% of tag matches go and I am about to fall asleep most of the time when the heels are in control. Such a played out formula. But that doesn't mean I can't enjoy exciting tag matches that are a bit better paced and feature more action such as Austin/HHH vs Jericho/Benoit, which is one of my favorite matches ever.
You've let the lazy, formulaic style of WWE tag team matches over the past few years give you a jaded outlook. There are so many brilliant tag team matches out there. Even some lesser matches are gems like APA vs WGTT from NWO '04 or Primetime Players vs Alex Riley/Percy Watson NXT 2/28/12. A good majority of the time I'd probably take a tag team match over a singles match. The psychology is so damn good. It's some of the most strategic work that can be done in wrestling. Tag team wrestling + southern style might be the best combo in the whole of the biz.
 
#8,147 ·
Finally someone else who sees Punk's face run as a complete Super-Man run. The worst was TLC 2011 for me though. Punk's Superman performance in TLC 2011 gives Austin's Superman performance in NWO '98 a run for its money.I also find the punk/D-Bryan series to be overrated (except for the Super Smackdown match, enjoyed that one) I don't even remember their OTL match and I'm sure I saw it about 2 times.

Rock vs Cena, I shat on it alot initially but after giving it a second watch I gave a nice little rating of ***3/4. It was a good wrestling match. I was expecting an all out brawl from these two but they went out there and put on more of a slow paced, methodical match. It caught of everyone off guard.

Given the build, it was a shitty way to go about it but it's not that bad of a wrestling match. Just nowhere near my favourites of all time though or this year as a matter of fact lol. Can't say I agree with you on the finish being a "feel good moment" I wanted Cena to over. Hey, what can I say. I'm a huge Cena mark.
Exactly. Since it's Punk, few will admit it but it's true. MITB was superman on steroids. He was in a LeBell Lock with a kendo stick and not only did he no-sell it, he took the stick and escaped the hold using it with only one hand. I mean, sure, Cena has been a huge superman several times in the past but he gets shitted on for it while Punk got away with it and everyone was sucking his balls for his GR8 PERFORMANCEZ~! (not a shot at anyone in specific).

I am a Cena fan too (although I was a dick about him a few months ago) but his character is beyond stale and him beating The Rock clean would have been a new low.

You've let the lazy, formulaic style of WWE tag team matches over the past few years give you a jaded outlook. There are so many brilliant tag team matches out there. Even some lesser matches are gems like APA vs WGTT from NWO '04 or Primetime Players vs Alex Riley/Percy Watson NXT 2/28/12. A good majority of the time I'd probably take a tag team match over a singles match. The psychology is so damn good. It's some of the most strategic work that can be done in wrestling. Tag team wrestling + southern style might be the best combo in the whole of the biz.
Considering that I watch WWE's stuff, this is what I face most of the time. As I said, not all tag team wrestling is that, but in WWE this is what we get and therefore, I'm not a big fan of it.

Based on this post, you must be a huge fan of Teddy Long, playa!
 
#8,148 ·
Agree totally. CM Punk was the new superman during his face run. Choke2Death has already mentioned his comebacks against D-Bryan at MITB but there was also some superman comebacks against Y2J (Extreme Rules). Y2J hit two codebreakers (including one with a chair) and Walls of Jericho. In contrast, Punk hit one GTS and it was all over. In the Triple Threat match against Kane and D-Bryan, Punk was chokeslammed once and put in a Yes! lock but that wasn't enough. Punk recovers and gives Kane one GTS and wins.

I know that top faces are booked this way but I thought I would bring this up :)
 
#8,149 ·
Considering that I watch WWE's stuff, this is what I face most of the time. As I said, not all tag team wrestling is that, but in WWE this is what we get and therefore, I'm not a big fan of it.

Based on this post, you must be a huge fan of Teddy Long, playa!
You seen any of the Rockers/Brainbusters matches from '89? That might restore some faith in WWF/WWE tag team wrestling for you.

Teddy Long...because of DOOM?

And, I have to throw my two cents into the whole "Superman" face winning discussion. I hate that term. So, so much. It's a common theme in wrestling. It always has been. I'm not saying it's ALWAYS good or exceptable, but come on. Everytime a face is in danger and somehow finds a way to come back and win it has to be classified as a "superman" type victory and/or burial for their opponent? It's a classic wrestling 101 right there. The face is on the brink of defeat only to summon up all the will they have left to pull out the big duke. So many Wargames are even based off this principal. If Punk's match vs Danielson @ MITB was an example of a "Superman" win then I must be crazy because I don't see it. At all. He wasn't like Hogan where he took 8 minutes of punishment then hit two moves to win. (that was even acceptable back in the 80's given the way matches went down via WWF) Oh no Punk can't be put in a finishing submission hold without tapping out. Oh man he's so the new "superman" face blah blah blah. So yeah, no in agreement one bit with that. Not because it's CM Punk and i'm a mark or any crap like that either. I often support Cena in the same sense too because if Cena wins a match then it is automatically "SUPERMAN DOES IT AGAIN, WHAT A SHOCK", etc, garb. Enough of this crap already. Use it to say that's why Cena/Miz I Quit sucked. But, not for matches that actually mattered.

Oh and these face comebacks are WAY more tolerable than those matches where heels have to always cheat to win. Which is all the fuckin time in WWE. God forbid a heel can win clean often. Now that's gotten old. Oh look a distraction, heel wins. Oh look he hit him from behind, heel wins. Grabbed the tights, low blow, exposed turnbuckle, heel wins. How about a straight up pinfall in a match that isn't a squash? You know that would really be awesome. So glad to hear Show won the World Championship clean. Damn that was refreshing from the general norm.
 
#8,150 ·
Gonna have to agree with Cody on this one. Will probably be called 'lol punk fan' but the superman thing is bullshit and gets thrown around anytime a face makes a comeback in a match. People have been in far worse subs than that LeBell Lock at MITB. I've seen guys like Rock/Austin/Cena/Orton/Trips in submissions for about 3 minutes without tapping. And the TLC match actually made for a really good story that helped kick off Punk's reign. Heroic comebacks are part of wrestling and with good reason. Now stuff like Cena/Miz from OTL '11? That's a bad ending, but none of Punk's matches ended like that. There's actually a comeback portion of the match where the face starts to comeback and it moves back to an even playing field, which is fine.

Watch the fucking Henry series and then try to say he's a superman...seriously.
 
#8,152 ·
Comebacks are all based upon story. That's why I incorporated the Hogan reference in the post above. You can really tell the difference when a match is key as far as making a comeback feel compelling opposed to a random face winning in the blink of an eye just for the hell of it.

Apparently you can't be a face who kicks out or survives a finisher in this day and age without having that moniker thrust upon you.
 
#8,153 ·
I have no problem with the comebacks but it's the hypocrisy behind it all.

"Oh Cena's this big fucking Superman who kicks out of everything, let me go proceed to ride CM Punk's cock as I jizz over his match with Daniel Bryan at MITB"

It's just that someone people are just too blind out there, it's either that or they can't form their opinion and are just riding the wave. One guy said "Cena is superman" and the rest follow suit. How is it people could call Cena Superman and not realize Punk wasn't any different?
 
#8,155 ·
Only superman performances I can think of out of Cena is the Cena/Miz match and perhaps the Cena/Orton BP '09 match, depending on how you see it. I don't like the ending but I don't think it's as bad as the the Cena/Miz one.

Examples of matches people say Cena puts on a superman performance during, plz.
 
#8,159 ·
"Superman performances" can be fun sometimes. I love it when Taker would make those big comebacks in tag team matches where he gives everyone his signature moves before the finish. Sting and Lex had fiery comebacks against Flair that lit up a crowd and made you feel this was going to be the final comeuppance for Flair.

However, sometimes when Cena does it the build doesn't make the comeback feel as special to me. Sometimes a comeback like that could make what happened before sour instead finally the heel is going to get his ass handed to him. Examples of Cena comebacks I didn't like - Cena/Orton I Quit Match (I agree fantastic match but still wasn't digging the comeback), Nexus tag at SummerSlam '10, Cena/Miz I Quit Match, and quite a few TV matches in general over the years (usually tag matches). Cena's babyface performance overall in the Lesnar match at Extreme Rules is tremendous but I can understand why people hate the finish even though Lesnar's brutality and presence, and Cena taking all of that punishment forced many of us in Allstate Arena to root for the hero. Cena comebacks that I love are his LMS with Umaga and I Quit Match with JBL to name a couple. I even enjoyed the character work he did in his Survivor Series match with Jericho a few years ago.
 
#8,160 ·
Haha. Some people really do hate the majority of their matches.
I like a few of them but I remember some of the ones in the '09 series going on about 5 mins too long.

"Superman performances" can be fun sometimes. I love it when Taker would make those big comebacks in tag team matches where he gives everyone his signature moves before the finish. Sting and Lex had fiery comebacks against Flair that lit up a crowd and made you feel this was going to be the final comeuppance for Flair.

However, sometimes when Cena does it the build doesn't make the comeback feel as special to me. Sometimes a comeback like that could make what happened before sour instead finally the heel is going to get his ass handed to him. Examples of Cena comebacks I didn't like - Cena/Orton I Quit Match (I agree fantastic match but still wasn't digging the comeback), Nexus tag at SummerSlam '10, Cena/Miz I Quit Match, and quite a few TV matches in general over the years (usually tag matches). Cena's babyface performance overall in the Lesnar match at Extreme Rules is tremendous but I can understand why people hate the finish even though Lesnar's brutality and presence, and Cena taking all of that punishment forced many of us in Allstate Arena to root for the hero. Cena comebacks that I love are his LMS with Umaga and I Quit Match with JBL to name a couple. I even enjoyed the character work he did in his Survivor Series match with Jericho a few years ago.
Agreed with you. Didn't think of the Nexus tag match but I remember that now. I think the most disappointing part of that match for me was just Nexus not winning. Thought it was sort of necessary. But completely agree on the JBL and Umaga comebacks owning. Was the Jericho match the one in Boston when he came back from the neck injury? I don't think I've seen that since it happened.
 
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