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The 2012 MOTYC thread

340K views 3K replies 192 participants last post by  Alan4L 
#1 ·
#501 ·
Just because someone has been doing something for a long time (Meltzer rating matches) it does not automatically mean he is better than everyone else at it - especially when it is something as subjective as this. For the football (soccer) fans amongst us, Emile Heskey has been playing football longer than Lionel Messi - which one is better?

mind fuck.
 
#502 ·
Exactly, I mean I can appreciate why ROH fans are bringing up the match getting *****. Meltzer isn't renowned for handing them out especially in US Wrestling and I'm sure this would make only the second ROH match after Joe/Kobashi to get the full 5? Or it was that DG 6 Man from Supercard of Honor that got the full 5 from Meltzer which wouldn't surprise me as its right in line with what he considers 'a great match'.

I just don't see why people try to argue about his rating meaning anything more than what it is. Its obviously good for ROH that their company put on a match that wowed one of the leading external figures in Wrestling, and as a result can join an elite club of matches that the renowned Meltzer considers to be perfect. However in context its only his opinion at the end of the day and doesn't mean much else, its not a set in stone ***** match because its impossible in such a subjective context to get a match that everyone can agree is the perfect match.

Some people love stiff wrestling while others are turned off by it, some seek inspiration from the sequences whereas others look for the character work and storytelling beyond the spots when assessing a match quality etc etc.
 
#503 ·
Yeah, I cannot stand 90% of DGUSA matches but I'd understand why some people love them - say I'm in the 'business' for 30 years and I say that a DGUSA match is terrible, because of what I prefer, does that mean my opinion means more than anyone else's here? It is only because he writes for a leading wrestling publication that it is seen in such a way - he has a tool for his opinions. You'll get people saying that Taker/HHH is less than *** but then say that his Elgin/Davey rating is spot on - so which one is he right on? Or is he actually neither right nor wrong on either of them?

This is basically pointless though as the same argument can also apply to whether or not you see Meltzer's ratings as the holy grail or whether or not you see them on par with, if not lower than someone like Segunda (whose opinions I'd actually value more as at least there's no CLEAR bias there).
 
#504 ·
yes @ DG 6-man + Joe/Punk II

I haven't actually given star ratings for however long, and I'd be lying if I said I'm not completely interested in what Dave gives these matches (though not moreso than a lot of others), but basing an opinion off of another opinion is really out there. Maybe I'm reading wrong, but it sounds like some would either hold off on their rating until Dave's come out or alter it depending on what his actually are.

He thought the Armaggedon 6-man HIAC was ****1/2. I thought it was dogshit. :)

It's a good comparison to your own rating if nothing else.
 
#505 ·
Damn how did I forget about Punk/Joe II. Not a clue why I thought it was Joe/Kobashi now.

@Vader, excellent post. Like I said I can understand why people are maybe ecstatic that Meltzer loved an ROH match so much, since even if his opinion actually counts for very much bar it being his own personal opinion, it is coming from a respected Wrestling fan who many seem to hold on a pedastal high above anyone else. Personally I just see his ratings as I do Seabs', one person watching and giving their personal opinion on a wrestling match. No-one can ever conclusively prove a match is perfect, hell I could totally see some people thinking the AJPW mid 90s classics as being too slow, or not understanding the psychology behind finisher kick outs playing off of prior matches. It doesn't diminish their standing if such a low opinion exists, but rather seeks to re-affirm that wrestling is entirely subjective.
 
#506 ·
I know what you mean. Meltzer has his own things that he likes to see in a match. Everyone has those so it's not like this is some fundamental flaw. I think his ratings are worthwhile because he has so many of them though. It lets you look at the big picture and compare matches to each other from the same person. I think that's where Meltzer's ratings have some value. I mean if you come onto this forum and give a match ***1/2 it's kind of hard to get anything out of that when I don't know what matches you've given similar ratings to.
 
#508 · (Edited)
WWE Wresltemania XXVIII
Triple H vs. The Undertaker - Hell In A Cell Match
****1/4

CM Punk vs. Chris Jericho
***3/4

The Rock vs. John Cena
****

WWE RAW 02/04
CM Punk vs. Mark Henry
****
 
#511 ·
It's pretty general, but obviously there are the main offenders. I just get very, very annoyed when someone gets hounded for liking a particular match/wrestler. There's debate and then there's just elitist snobbery. I'm sure you know what I mean, though, it's prevalent in all forms of criticism.
 
#512 ·
Ahhh fair enough, yeah I'm in complete agreement. I mean I definitely differ with a lot of people these days about 'great matches', e.g my numerous discussions with fans of Angle, Davey, Michaels and many others.

I'd never mock someone for liking a match, though it does bug me when people laugh when others rate a match much lower and dismiss others opinions as just hating a match for the sake of it. Reminds me of that discussion Jawbreaker was involved where he argued people couldn't just hide behind liking the match as their opinion, but rather when called upon to discuss why they enjoyed a particular match to offer the best explanation so as to allow for a proper discussion about the potential flaws in the match that meant others had a lesser opinion of the same match.


Though I want it on record that if anyone watches Lawler v Dundee LLT 30/12/85 and comes away thinking it sucks donkey balls I will hunt them down and strike down with merciful vengeance :p
 
#514 ·
going to rewatch Richards/Elgin because on a first watch I had it at ****1/4. Loved Richards as the increasingly desperate champ, thought they built magnificently to Elgin's powerbomb, and was pleasantly surprised that they didn't lose the crowd as much as I thought they would with all the nearfalls.

flag sabbath is pretty dead on, as usual. Can't find his post but it got my take on it pretty much perfectly.
 
#519 ·
Its strange, I actually liked Richards' selling for the most part (Elgin's collapse to the mat after two ankle locks was the best bit of incorporating selling into a spot), I mean there were a few instances where he'd get up too quick from a move/run at a quick speed and I'd be about to roll my eyes and expect him to ignore the earlier work and thus kill the story that Elgin was slowly weakening his entire body but to his credit he was always grabbing his lower back before big moves to at least reinforce his body was damaged and thus even if the move in theory wasn't something you'd attempt with a weakened back it at least came off as 'this is something I have to do no matter how much it hurts'. And as I said before, both men sold the exhaustion and wear & tear of the match surprisingly well, actually felt like they were out of energy by the end rather than moving effortlessly like the match had been going 5 minutes.

Still, the opening 2/3rds dragged horribly and the structure was off. I mean Davey's desperation at the start was nice but then his spot where he dragged Elgin round the ringside area lacked that follow up urgency and not two minutes later Elgin took over and started control. I just never felt Richards was sufficiently being beaten to within an inch of his life or that Elgin was in trouble and needed a big spot to take control: the fisherman suplex and powerbomb into the barricade was an awesome transition spot in theory...but Richards needed to have controlled more of the opening before that spot for it to serve as a game changing spot and transition into Elgin taking control.

I fully agree with you however on the superb buildup to the spinning powerbomb, felt like Elgin's offence was perfectly placed in building up to that powerbomb and it came at just the right amount time in the match to feel like a genuine match ender. Also loved the discuss lariat to set up which looked to have killed Davey, felt like one of those classic ROH match enders where someone like Joe would hit a big combo move to finally put the opponent down for the 3 count.
 
#515 ·
just watched Elgin vs Richards and I'd throw it slightly above Naito/Okada for my MOTY so far. kinda disappointed with the finish. much like in taker/hhh they had to end it in such an obvious spot where you knew it was going to be finsher > 3 count. just end the thing on the high note ffs and don't overkill everything.
 
#516 ·
I loved that Mark Henry/CM Punk match on Raw. One of the best performances of Henrys career how he worked the injured rib and played the dominant strong man to perfection throwing around Punk like a rag doll. The finish was booked perfectly too. Great way to utilize a count out finish which is usually a bad thing.
 
#523 ·
So melter gave Richards/Elgin a legit 5 star match?!? I can't see these guys putting on a 5 star match. I really can't see Elgin meshing better with davey than guys like strong, omega, Edwards, ad probably a few others. The match just wouldnt have a big fight feel. Plus im sure roh has put on better matches in the past 6 years.Very surprising, I'm going to have to check this out.
 
#525 ·
I personally don't have a proble with Meltzer's ratings at all. He obviously has a certain criteria that has to be met for him to rate a match that high, and it's his own personal criteria. I don't think people should get so annoyed at his ratings since it is subjective and he is pretty much just a fan like those of us in here who rate and analyse matches.
 
#526 ·
CM Punk v Mark Henry - Raw 4/2/12
-- All things considered this was perfectly worked. It's not a MOTYC in my mind but they couldn't have put together a better match considering the time it got and the directions they want both guys to go in. Henry looked like a monster talking trash, dominating, and cutting off Punk at every turn. Punk did a great job selling that his championship was in jeopardy and put up a spirited fight with great flurries (made even better by the crowd) and a couple neat desperation spots (really liked the DDT counter to the bear hug). Would've liked a close nearfall or two against Punk before the countout finish to get the crowd really thinking that it might be Henry's night but can't blame them for that. Would love to see a longer version of this on PPV.

***1/2
 
#528 ·
I definitely see the criticisms of the Davey/Elgin match and there was a section of the match I absolutely hated, but for me there was enough awesome stuff in the match for a higher rating. I definitely don't think it would have been anywhere near as good without Nigel being ridiculously amazing on commentary and the crowd being so into it which are two things that definitely can add to a match, and in this case, both were so awesome that they REALLY added to it for me. On a rewatch I could end up lowering my rating which I do all the time.
 
#532 · (Edited)
So far Okada/Naito is my MOTY. Here's my review of it:

OKADA/Naito is actually a pretty damn good match but it has its flaws. I just hated how sometimes Naito would completely ignore all the leg work he had previously done at times. The finish also left a bad a taste in my mouth. I haven't seen the match in some weeks so correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the match end in a clothesline? And just minutes prior to that, OKADA was dropping Naito on his head? A guy gets hit some high impact moves and still kicks out, but a clothesline ends the match?

Then another thing was the piledrivers. I think I just have to accept the fact that in Puro a piledriver deals the same damage as a headlock. But the one thing I liked was OKADA selling the injured leg really well after delivering the two piledrivers (the one inside the ring and the other outside). He made it look like it was the only thing keeping him back from winning. But there were times Naito would just completely ignore the leg work. It wasn't often but it happened.

I not a big puro guy or as a matter of fact any wrestling match on the whole that involves stiff kicks chops, elbows,no selling and head dropping but NJPW doesn't feature such shit (at least from what I've seen) It's mostly NOAH and AJPW that do that sort of thing, so I stay as far away as possible from those promotions.

But I really liked OKADA/Naito. I'm not really that big a fan of either guy but OKADA is a really good performer in the ring. He has good psychology and sells well. For some odd reason he's like a Japanese Randy Orton to me with his mannerisms. This is a damn good match. I don't see it being MOTY but it's one of the best for the year thus far.

****
I'm really dreading that Richards/Elgin match. I hate stiff wrestling. Hate it, hate it, hate it. I don't mind one or two stiff shots but holy shit the overdone stiff elbows, kicks, chops just turns me off. I hate the ROH/indy style of wrestling. I don't wanna really brand it as the indy style but it's commonly found in the 'big time' indy companies and even Japanese promotions like NOAH and AJPW. Every match is structured the same way. Random ass chain wrestling at the start that fail to develop a story, then the aggressive takedown and aggressive rolls to counter them begin. Then from there it's just move for move. There is a huge lack of selling right now on the indies. No one sells anything. It's clear as day that a lot of these indy wrestlers need to put away their Misawa/Kobashi tapes and put in some good old Memphis. They try so badly to recreate all those AJPW matches from the late 80s and 90s.

Oh yeah and I'm not sure if it's true but I heard there was a match with Davey Richards 9and possibly Eddie Edwards, not too sure) in which the finish saw Richards top rope suplex his opponent and then without releasing it on the mat did another one and then finished with an ankle lock? I can see why that will entertain some, but it does nothing for me. Like I said I haven't seen the match but I can take a guess her and say that, knowing these two men, there was no back work previously done and there definitely wasn't any leg work. But all limb work aside, it's just overdone. A top rope suplex is as big as a spot it gets. It's a move that knocks the wind out of both guys, you're killing the illusion by going directly into a standing suplex and where the heck does the ankle lock come into this? It's way too overdone for my taste.

I just really, really, hate that stiff kicking, elbowing, chopping, no selling, head dropping style of wrestling. There's nothing that breaks my concentration and interest and overall focus more in a match like when I see wrestlers just going move for move. A great example of this that I saw recently and is fresh in my mind is Hamada/Melissa vs Del Rey/Eagles from SHIMMER 39. It got to the point where I just stopped watching. Nothing is more distracting when you're trying to watch a match and it's nothing but a you hit me, I hit you. A good example of an intense match that took place on the card night was Jessica James/Athena. That's how you convey the message of intense. Check that match out. It's a short match but great storytelling.

But like I said dreading that Richards/Elgin. To me the best thing in ROH is Adam Cole. I just hate his style of wrestling as a face. He needs to tone it down. As a heel he worked tremendously though. He's still pretty damn young( which is why this is not a major complain atm for me) but he needs to put on some more size if he wants WWE to start calling. But the guy has the look, he can talk and has the in-ring skills. He's the total package. I've had my eye on him for about 2 years now. He's the only guy on the indies right now that I wanna see in the WWE.

Oh and as for Meltzer, his opinion doesn't mean damn thing to me. He was once a God amongst wrestling fans to me but now I don't give a damn. He also obviously has some sort of bias against WWE. Are you telling me the only ***** match since Bret/Austin was Punk/Cena?
 
#534 ·
Oh and I have one more complaint that I forgot to mention about the style of wrestling that I so am not in love with- overdone near falls/roll ups. Have people forgotten the purpose of a roll up? Last time I checked it works perfectly in a match where the babyface has been getting the living hell pounded out of him and then just when you think he has nothing left in the tank, he's able to duck the clothesline off the rebound and roll up the heel. Then, the heel basically gets kicks out and the face runs straight into a clothesline. Can this simple but effective style of wrestling be found on the indies nowadays? I'm just asking.

Not even going to bother to touch on how ridiculous the overdone, let's roll oll over the goddamn place with it, leverage pins are.

Oh and as for nearfalls. Good Lord! False finishes, they're everywhere. It's worse than Atttiude Era false finishes! They get redundant and lose that "Holy shit, how did he kick out!" feel fast.
 
#536 ·
Why does his review look forced though?

I watched the latest NJPW show, the New Japan Cup Day 2. Nothing MOTYC level but Nakamura/Anderson was very enjoyable, and MiSu/Makabe was okay too (I mark for MiSu), but Tanahashi/Naito annoyed the living fuck out of me. Absolutely nothing made sense at all! FUCK!

I was about ready to jump on the Naito bandwagon after the Okada performance which was so great, but the Kojima match didn't do much for me and then there was this! I'm still holding out hope he has more great stuff in him, but he keeps doing the leg work, and the only time it has meant anything was in the Okada match. The Tanahashi match had both guys going after the leg, and non of it led anywhere in th slightest, Tana's selling was okay for like 30 seconds but Naitos was abysmal and they both just completely forgot about it. The last thing we need is another Tanahashi type who uses all these fucking dragon screws for THE WHOLE MATCH, and then hits a bunch of frog splashes and spinning twirly neckbreaker things for no reason. Stupid.
 
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